KEF LS50 Wireless II - convenience over audiophile sound

I have an approx. 200 sq feet rectangle office space. Currently running Harbeth P3esr on Croft Acoustics phono integrated hybrid amplifier (ECC 83 tubes and MOSFET) with Node 2i streamer passing through Metro Acoustics Onyx NOS dac. Running Dueland 12GA oiled speaker wire. The sound is musical, detailed, airy and comfortable to listen to. Vocals are outstanding, instrument separation is just right - listening to music is a dream for hours long. Lifetime subscription of Roon with Tidal and Qobuz active services. One would ask - so why the itch to change anything. 

I find myself not listening to music as much as I'd like due to the 'convenience' factor. I would like the tube integrated to be on all the time, available for music play back  - but I know that's not recommended due to the high heat generation and adversely impacting the tube lifespan. The amp does not have an idle and a wake up state. I have to 'plan' my listening sessions by warm up time and being careful not to shut down in between breaks and my next listening or timing it by shutting it down when long enough. 

Enter the 'convenient' KEF LS50 Wireless II speakers. Rave online audiophile reviews. Got a pair from my dealer for 45 days. Ran the speaker for 120 hours break in period and configured the DSP along with Roon MUSE setting for optimal room configuration. The KEF LS50Wii are very convenient. When not in use for 20 mins they go in standby mode to be woken by the next stream of music playback. They are Roon certified, and can play every sort of file format and stream including chromecast. But they just dont sound as good as my Croft and Harbeth set up. 

Close, but not the same. I think it can benefit from a better internal DAC. The sound lacks details, music separation, and sweetness compared to the Harbeth's. I have done a lot of A/B by having both on equal height speaker stands and connected to Roon - its a night and day difference. I am trying really hard to have the KEF play at par with the Harbeth set up so I can simplify my audio system and also be able to play music on demand with the KEF being on all the time in stand by mode. If I had not listened to my Croft and Harbeth set up I would have bought the KEF in a heartbeat. But I feel I will be sacrificing quality listening session over quantity. 

Any recommendations on configuring the KEF LS50Wii or maybe a better alternative set of speakers out there that would be better than my current set up? I like the convenience of active speakers but....

I'm thinking something else entirely, or maybe I didn't understand - why not just get a solid state amp/preamp? Can your integrated by used as just a power amp?  A preamp like the Schiit Freya would also allow you to switch between tube and solid state w/out "planning when you listen". 

3 hours ago, Ghulamr said:

I have an approx. 200 sq feet rectangle office space. Currently running Harbeth P3esr on Croft Acoustics phono integrated hybrid amplifier (ECC 83 tubes and MOSFET) with Node 2i streamer passing through Metro Acoustics Onyx NOS dac. Running Dueland 12GA oiled speaker wire. The sound is musical, detailed, airy and comfortable to listen to. Vocals are outstanding, instrument separation is just right - listening to music is a dream for hours long. Lifetime subscription of Roon with Tidal and Qobuz active services. One would ask - so why the itch to change anything. 

 

I find myself not listening to music as much as I'd like due to the 'convenience' factor. I would like the tube integrated to be on all the time, available for music play back  - but I know that's not recommended due to the high heat generation and adversely impacting the tube lifespan. The amp does not have an idle and a wake up state. I have to 'plan' my listening sessions by warm up time and being careful not to shut down in between breaks and my next listening or timing it by shutting it down when long enough. 

 

Enter the 'convenient' KEF LS50 Wireless II speakers. Rave online audiophile reviews. Got a pair from my dealer for 45 days. Ran the speaker for 120 hours break in period and configured the DSP along with Roon MUSE setting for optimal room configuration. The KEF LS50Wii are very convenient. When not in use for 20 mins they go in standby mode to be woken by the next stream of music playback. They are Roon certified, and can play every sort of file format and stream including chromecast. But they just dont sound as good as my Croft and Harbeth set up. 

 

Close, but not the same. I think it can benefit from a better internal DAC. The sound lacks details, music separation, and sweetness compared to the Harbeth's. I have done a lot of A/B by having both on equal height speaker stands and connected to Roon - its a night and day difference. I am trying really hard to have the KEF play at par with the Harbeth set up so I can simplify my audio system and also be able to play music on demand with the KEF being on all the time in stand by mode. If I had not listened to my Croft and Harbeth set up I would have bought the KEF in a heartbeat. But I feel I will be sacrificing quality listening session over quantity. 

 

Any recommendations on configuring the KEF LS50Wii or maybe a better alternative set of speakers out there that would be better than my current set up? I like the convenience of active speakers but....

 

I’ve got a pair of the original LS50Ws in a large room with KEF subs. I found the room needed a lot of acoustic treatment before the KEFs sounded their best, and it is possible the KEF system is more room fussy than the Harbeth one. A small sub from KEF or REL might make the sound sweeter too. What stands are you using? IsoAcoustics make some good ones for desktop use, and I use KEF stands filled up two thirds full with Atabites with my LS50Ws. I use Duelund DCA20GA cable to connect my subs incidentally.

I absolutely love the LS50WII's we got for the family room. That said, my office separates setup sounds much better, as I have more time to listen there, but also cost a lot more, with a lot more complication (Naim, Sonore, Audio Physics, etc). But the LS50W's are lifestyle speakers. We have a large open space and no way did I want to run cables everywhere. Plus they are easy for family and guests to play to if they like via Spotify etc (I'm the only Roon user in the family). Lately, we've been rediscovering vinyl and mostly playing via a Music Hall Classic turntable into the 3.5mm aux. Lots of fun.

So I would say stick with separates if you're after ultimate sound quality, the KEF's for ultimate convenience. Otherwise one needs to spend more $$ going up the chain of actives (not all of which are wireless). Dynaudio, ATC, Dutch, etc. I got the LS50's scratch and dent from a local dealer at a reduced price as well, so there's that. After trading in some of my old office setup walked out with the speakers and new stands for around $1300. Hard to beat at that price.  

(note, my signature is way out of date, before we moved houses)

And oh, the sound might be improved some by hardwiring with decent ethernet cable (thereby defeating the purpose of owning these speakers imo so I'm not going there). I did upgrade the power cables (hospital grade 'Jellyfish' off of Amazon at about $15 each) and that seemed to make a subtle difference and the iec connection is much better - the supplied cable actually worked it's way out at one point and I couldn't figure out why the speakers kept cutting out. A sub would be nice too, but that's for down the road. Next tweak purchase will be Herbie's sliders for the stands, but again that's as much about convenience than anything. So all the usual tweak caveats apply, though they'll be subtle and YMMV. Yeah, the internal DAC could be a choke point impossible to get around. 

6 hours ago, Richard Dale said:

 I use KEF stands filled up two thirds full with Atabites with my LS50Ws. 

How did you fill the stands? I'm assuming not running the cable through and blocking the hole at the bottom? Mine are a bit wobbly but going to try the Herbie's sliders first (I do like the hidden cable). 

2 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

How did you fill the stands? I'm assuming not running the cable through and blocking the hole at the bottom? Mine are a bit wobbly but going to try the Herbie's sliders first (I do like the hidden cable). 

With a funnel through the hole in the top as far as I can remember.

Thanks for the reply. @firedog the Croft integrated acts as both power amp and pre (with tubes). Yes I can switch to solid state and have it powered on 24x7 but I love my Croft and how it plays will with the Harbeth. That's where the actives come in - offering more convenience with a state of always on - which my tube integrated will at the cost of impacting tube life. 

@charlesphotoagree the KEF's are more lifestyle speakers. Your room looks active and less damped. Any secret to your DSP setting? IMG_9457.HEIChere is my office set up with KEF. Harbeth's are the on the floor covered. 

As anyone any experience with Buchardt a500? Would those be a major step up from the KEF? 

With all due respect, but you will never find a satisfying solution looking at active speakers.

As the amplifiers are builtin the speaker housing, they will (need to) be class-D (or alike) , in order to be able to deal with heath.

There are some great class-D amps out there but none will ever sound as tube amps.

As already recommended above, the best thing you can do is to add / replace your amp with a tube-alike solidstate amp. Ayre comes to mind immediatelly.

Otherwise, you will need to get acquainted to the sound of builtin solid state.

Dirk

@ghulmar Nice looking room for an office. I would suggest toeing them in a bit to begin with. I just had a look at my dsp settings and won't share for now until I've had a bit of a play with them. For some reason they seem different then when I originally set them up (for example desk mode is selected which I'm pretty sure wasn't the case). Not sure what you have them plugged into, but you might want to try straight into the wall as well if possible. 

FTR the KEF's have both Class D and A/B amps in them. Yeah, it's a pretty active room (in use as well as you can tell by the ping pong table). But the best thing about the KEF's is you can put them anywhere within reach of an outlet. And very high WAF. 

Maybe take a look into the Genelec 8040B. Its an all Analog active. No built-in DAC. Its a bit less than the Kef in terms of price also (the Genelec's are priced "each" usually).

But with that said, it sounds like you are coming from a setup that leans pretty strongly on the side of being sweet and warm and not necessarily a setup that focuses on pure accuracy. This is not meant to be a swipe at you or your setup but its just an observation based on what you said you have now and what you said you are looking for in terms of sound. Harbeth's are known to pack a lot of "flavor" in them. Add this with a Tube front end and you are listening to a very different sound in general.

If this is your preference then you will likely have a hard time being satisfied using an all-in-one Active speaker.

The Genelec could be run from your PreAmp or straight from your DAC's Analog Outputs (If you use Digital Vol Control in Roon). But they are pretty truthful in their sound so be aware of that. To some folks this is not to their liking.

Oooh, if he's having trouble with the KEF's, then Genelecs are a pretty tough sell. I've only heard them behind mixing desks, and they are bright and revealing and almost immediately set off my tinnitus (though typically being played quite loud by the producer and musicians involved). That said, a lot of people swear by them and they are quite popular, but their pedigree is use as studio monitors. 

The Dynaudio Focus 10 or 30 might be worth a listen, but twice to three times the price of the KEF's. Of course once you're in that range, may as well go for the ATC SCM19A's though you'd still have to feed them with a source. The ATC's would be my end game speakers and a lot closer match to the Croft/Harbeth's. 

Honestly, you are on a fool's errand trying to make a pair of small active wireless speakers sound like a tube amp setup. These things are targeted at entirely different markets.

Maybe in a few years some enterprising company will come up with a DSP package whereby you can specify what amp/speaker combo you want your Kefs to sound like. But, for now, just enjoy the convenience. 

On 8/1/2023 at 4:25 PM, Ghulamr said:

Close, but not the same. I think it can benefit from a better internal DAC. The sound lacks details, music separation, and sweetness compared to the Harbeth's. I have done a lot of A/B by having both on equal height speaker stands and connected to Roon - its a night and day difference. I am trying really hard to have the KEF play at par with the Harbeth set up so I can simplify my audio system and also be able to play music on demand with the KEF being on all the time in stand by mode. If I had not listened to my Croft and Harbeth set up I would have bought the KEF in a heartbeat. But I feel I will be sacrificing quality listening session over quantity. 

You're dealing with the fact that the audio industry still finds it hard to assemble value for money gear that gets the engineering good enough. IME, the latest offerings are much better, but still are too susceptible to electrical noise factors.

On 8/1/2023 at 4:25 PM, Ghulamr said:

 

Any recommendations on configuring the KEF LS50Wii or maybe a better alternative set of speakers out there that would be better than my current set up? I like the convenience of active speakers but....

 

Most likely, only a lot of careful tweaking to mitigate the interference issues which degrade the KEF SQ will do the job - I've found Edifier speakers can do detail, separation and sweetness, in spades, with plenty of grunt to also do Big Sound; but it is not trivial to optimise their working environment, to achieve this.

On 8/1/2023 at 2:25 AM, Ghulamr said:

I have an approx. 200 sq feet rectangle office space. Currently running Harbeth P3esr on Croft Acoustics phono integrated hybrid amplifier (ECC 83 tubes and MOSFET) with Node 2i streamer passing through Metro Acoustics Onyx NOS dac. Running Dueland 12GA oiled speaker wire. The sound is musical, detailed, airy and comfortable to listen to. Vocals are outstanding, instrument separation is just right - listening to music is a dream for hours long. Lifetime subscription of Roon with Tidal and Qobuz active services. One would ask - so why the itch to change anything. 

 

I find myself not listening to music as much as I'd like due to the 'convenience' factor. I would like the tube integrated to be on all the time, available for music play back  - but I know that's not recommended due to the high heat generation and adversely impacting the tube lifespan. The amp does not have an idle and a wake up state. I have to 'plan' my listening sessions by warm up time and being careful not to shut down in between breaks and my next listening or timing it by shutting it down when long enough. 

 

........

 

Any recommendations on configuring the KEF LS50Wii or maybe a better alternative set of speakers out there that would be better than my current set up? I like the convenience of active speakers but....

 

 tube pre's don't have to be a space heater or eat tubes regularly. Linear Tube Audio products are good for tube life and only produce mild heat due to their design.

  I never turn off the MZ2 I have, haven't burned out a tube in 8 years whereas with a CJ PV 10A I was replacing pre tubes annually.

   MOSFET amps IME experience are space heaters, a class D amp runs far cooler than class A, A/B.

Because how inefficient the Harbeths are you need a powerful amp section, I faced a similar  issue with maggies of needing an amp section thats powerful

without being a space heater.

Spend more time tweaking the LS50 wireless II. First, hard wired them so they can accept the Roon upsampling and Muse EQ setting that I configured for KEF endpoint. Huge difference. Must say the sound came really close to Harbeth/Croft combo. Hard wiring and Roon EQ setting is a game changer though heavy on PC Processing. 

BUT - as soon as I changed source to TIDAL Connect or Spotify Connect the 'house' sound of KEF kicked in which again is more compressed and muddled compared to the Harbeth/Croft combo. 

I will be returning the KEF LS50 wirelessII back to my dealer and keeping my beloved Croft/Harbeth system. I will be borrowing a pair of Buchardt a500 from a friend next week, as he swears on its performance. Will chime in with my thoughts - but for now will enjoy my Harbeths. 

It also just depends on the sound you want. Any decent active is going to give you a truly different sound than what you are used to (especially Harbeth with any tube components.) 

I have no experience with the LS50, but really good actives (Kii, Genelec, D&D…) will have an accuracy and clarity that is often confusing and off-putting at first. If the recording is bad, then you will hear it in its full wretchedness. But when it’s right, it will sound right in a new way.

How did you get on with the Buchardt A500 speakers? 

Buchardt a500 were interesting speakers. They were definitely a grade above the KEF wireless - but fell short of the Harbeth/Croft sound. They have a slew of magic up their sleeve like room correction and master tunings (adjusting the cross over digitally) which really pulls a cover over your ears and get's you really close to a nod of approval - but it's overall sound characteristics does not change. Once you understand what Buchardt speakers signature sound is you quickly learn - everything else is only a tweak (magic). 

It lacks the airiness, dynamic resolution, instrument separation and details. I believe the low frequency response come in the way of  60-4000Hz frequency sound. It lacks the drama and emotion of music that Harbeth speakers does such a great job off. Did I mention it really lacks the openness. Again remember that it uses Cirrus Logic DAC (same brand as apple iPhone) and Texas instrument class D amp. Both subpar products in my opinion. It has tremendous room for improvement - but that's it. 

Buchardt has the best customer service and lots of potential as a company. Great social media presence. But surely not a Croft/Harbeth/Metrum Acoustics DAC killer. 

Certainly not the DAC.  More likely the powered speakers are volume constrained by their limiter.  Look to add a sub and a good DSP like Dirac to see a gigantic boost in sound quality.  Also consider a crosstalk canelllation software like UBacch.  Dirac DSP, a sub like and SVS SB 1000, and UBacch will create something that should surpass the Harbeths and your tube amplificcation chain.