Solved? "Roon has lost control of the audio device"

5 minutes ago, marcosax said:

It is Linux-based, it's me who don't  have a clue where to input that command line

 

This is where one would need to contact the OS vendor (Ropieee), or maybe someone here knows.

 

But I find it likely being some issue at the endpoint side. But without details from there it is hard to say for sure.

 

2 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

This is where one would need to contact the OS vendor (Ropieee), or maybe someone here knows.

 

I might try asking Harry ten Berge, RoPieee Author ,

but it doesn't look he's active on this forum (he's in community Roonslab with Spockfish nickname)

 

 

2 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

But I find it likely being some issue at the endpoint side. But without details from there it is hard to say for sure.

 

 

Allo's lack of support and updating of the Linux kernel (mind you, I don't understand anything about it) for their USBridge Signature hardware has been a long-known issue, but Harry managed to make a version of Ropieee specifically for that endpoint, addressing the issues, which was working.

 

Besides, could Allo have issues working with HQPlayer but can all the same work with no problem with Roon to HOLO endpoint enabled? Or should it show issues with HOLO as well?

 

Initially, I also thought of investing in a HOLO Red to replace Allo's USBridge Sig, but it's nearly €1k. And what if it turns out it isn't the culprit?

Raspberry Pi4 kit is about € 100, but I see it has a fan and I don't want a fan noise anyway near my listening position (I removed the NUC in another room because I could hear its HD drive spinning)

 

35 minutes ago, marcosax said:

Raspberry Pi4 kit is about € 100, but I see it has a fan and I don't want a fan noise anyway near my listening position (I removed the NUC in another room because I could hear its HD drive spinning)

 

You only need couple of small passive heat sinks on RPi4, no fans needed. There are passive heatsink cases also for both RPi4 and RPi5.

 

But one question came to my mind while taking a shower; what do you need to do to make it work again? Since in the logs, HQPlayer is failing to reconnect with the DAC.

 

11 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

But one question came to my mind while taking a shower; what do you need to do to make it work again? Since in the logs, HQPlayer is failing to reconnect with the DAC.

 

 

Roon shows music in pause , and I just need to press Play again

22 hours ago, marcosax said:

Roon shows music in pause , and I just need to press Play again

 

So at some point this reconnection failure cycle breaks:

+ 2024/09/16 01:50:06 NAA output connect to 10.0.1.50:43210 [ipv4]
# 2024/09/16 01:50:06 NAA output clNetEngine::Connect(): initialize: clALSAEngine::Initialize(): snd_pcm_open(): Device or resource busy

And the connection succeeds. The interesting question is when and why that happens. Why it fails and why at some point it succeeds. And what happens meanwhile.

 

39 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

So at some point this reconnection failure cycle breaks:

+ 2024/09/16 01:50:06 NAA output connect to 10.0.1.50:43210 [ipv4]
# 2024/09/16 01:50:06 NAA output clNetEngine::Connect(): initialize: clALSAEngine::Initialize(): snd_pcm_open(): Device or resource busy

And the connection succeeds. The interesting question is when and why that happens. Why it fails and why at some point it succeeds. And what happens meanwhile.

 

 

yes,  Do you have any clue? because I don't know where to start ... and I can't interpret log either.   If you need more details, just ask

should this be helpful (let m eknow if this clutters the thread): 

play started at 12:11 and paused at 12:33 

 

here's the log :

 

+ 2024/09/17 12:11:36 Control connection from 10.0.1.21:55950

+ 2024/09/17 12:11:38 Control started from 10.0.1.21:55950

& 2024/09/17 12:11:38 Idle

& 2024/09/17 12:11:39 Playlist clear

& 2024/09/17 12:11:39 Playlist add URI: http://10.0.1.21:30001/9701eabced8746f6b0c094af49821020/stream.raw

& 2024/09/17 12:11:39 Play

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Offload: resampler=disabled convolution=disabled

+ 2024/09/17 12:11:39 Playback engine running

2024/09/17 12:11:39 SDM conversion parameters (3, 0)

2024/09/17 12:11:39 DSD 6 dB gain enabled

2024/09/17 12:11:39 NAA output set sampling rate: 1536000 (1536000)

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Automatic output rate: 1536000

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Engine reinit, rate or blocksize change triggered

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Rate: 48000, block size: 3840, frame size: 640

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Block size: 3840 (sample: 3)

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Analysis initialized

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Playback engine ratio: 32

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Filter: closed form (1M taps)

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Dither: 15th order linear noise shaping for 20-bit

2024/09/17 12:11:39 DAC correction post-process active

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Initializing processing for matrix pipeline 0

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Matrix pipeline 0: 0 -> 0 0/1

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Initializing processing for matrix pipeline 1

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Matrix pipeline 1: 1 -> 1 0/1

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Initializing processing for matrix pipeline 2

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Matrix pipeline 2: 2 -> 2 0/1

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Initializing processing for matrix pipeline 3

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Matrix pipeline 3: 3 -> 3 0/1

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Initializing processing for matrix pipeline 4

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Matrix pipeline 4: 4 -> 4 0/1

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Initializing processing for matrix pipeline 5

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Matrix pipeline 5: 5 -> 5 0/1

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Initializing processing for matrix pipeline 6

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Matrix pipeline 6: 6 -> 6 0/1

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Initializing processing for matrix pipeline 7

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Matrix pipeline 7: 7 -> 7 0/1

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Matrix processing enabled

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Set volume: -3 +

~ 2024/09/17 12:11:39 Adaptive transport gain: 0 dB (1)

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Offload: resampler=disabled convolution=disabled

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Initialization complete, starting audio engine

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Teams: 1

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Places: 0

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Parallel threads: 8

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Nested parallelism: 4

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Parallel pipelines: 4

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Offload: resampler=disabled convolution=disabled

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Set volume: -3 +

~ 2024/09/17 12:11:39 Adaptive transport gain: 0 dB (1)

2024/09/17 12:11:39 Offload: resampler=disabled convolution=disabled

+ 2024/09/17 12:11:40 NAA output network engine starting...

2024/09/17 12:11:40 NAA output network format: 1536000/32/2 [pcm]

2024/09/17 12:11:40 NAA output network PCM streaming

2024/09/17 12:11:40 NAA output sampling rate: 1536000 (1536000)

2024/09/17 12:11:40 NAA output channels: 2 (2)

+ 2024/09/17 12:11:40 NAA output network engine started at: 1536000

# 2024/09/17 12:33:41 NAA output network timeout

! 2024/09/17 12:33:41 NAA output clNetEngine::PushPCM(): clNetEngine::SendStreamPCM(): clSemaphore::Wait() (24606)

! 2024/09/17 12:33:41 clHQPlayerEngine::Execute(): push to FIFO failed

2024/09/17 12:33:41 Stop request (reset)

- 2024/09/17 12:33:41 Playback engine stopped

& 2024/09/17 12:33:41 Stop...

& 2024/09/17 12:33:41 ...stopped

2024/09/17 12:33:41 Set volume: -3 +

~ 2024/09/17 12:33:41 Adaptive transport gain: 0 dB (1)

- 2024/09/17 12:33:41 Control ended from 10.0.1.21:55950

2024/09/17 12:33:42 NAA output network Audio IPv6 support disabled

2024/09/17 12:33:42 NAA output discovery from 0.0.0.0

& 2024/09/17 12:33:42 NAA output discovered network audio: name='ropieee [RoPieeeXL]' version='Signalyst Network Audio Daemon 5.0.1' @10.0.1.50:43210

2024/09/17 12:33:43 NAA output discovered 1 Network Audio Adapters

+ 2024/09/17 12:33:43 NAA output connect to 10.0.1.50:43210 [ipv4]

# 2024/09/17 12:33:43 NAA output clNetEngine::Connect(): initialize: clALSAEngine::Initialize(): snd_pcm_open(): Device or resource busy

2024/09/17 12:33:44 NAA output network Audio IPv6 support disabled

2024/09/17 12:33:44 NAA output discovery from 0.0.0.0

& 2024/09/17 12:33:44 NAA output discovered network audio: name='ropieee [RoPieeeXL]' version='Signalyst Network Audio Daemon 5.0.1' @10.0.1.50:43210

2024/09/17 12:33:45 NAA output discovered 1 Network Audio Adapters

+ 2024/09/17 12:33:45 NAA output connect to 10.0.1.50:43210 [ipv4]

# 2024/09/17 12:33:45 NAA output clNetEngine::Connect(): initialize: clALSAEngine::Initialize(): snd_pcm_open(): Device or resource busy

2024/09/17 12:33:46 NAA output network Audio IPv6 support disabled

2024/09/17 12:33:46 NAA output discovery from 0.0.0.0

& 2024/09/17 12:33:46 NAA output discovered network audio: name='ropieee [RoPieeeXL]' version='Signalyst Network Audio Daemon 5.0.1' @10.0.1.50:43210

2024/09/17 12:33:47 NAA output discovered 1 Network Audio Adapters

+ 2024/09/17 12:33:47 NAA output connect to 10.0.1.50:43210 [ipv4]

# 2024/09/17 12:33:47 NAA output clNetEngine::Connect(): initialize: clALSAEngine::Initialize(): snd_pcm_open(): Device or resource busy

2024/09/17 12:33:48 NAA output network Audio IPv6 support disabled

2024/09/17 12:33:48 NAA output discovery from 0.0.0.0

& 2024/09/17 12:33:48 NAA output discovered network audio: name='ropieee [RoPieeeXL]' version='Signalyst Network Audio Daemon 5.0.1' @10.0.1.50:43210

2024/09/17 12:33:49 NAA output discovered 1 Network Audio Adapters

+ 2024/09/17 12:33:49 NAA output connect to 10.0.1.50:43210 [ipv4]

# 2024/09/17 12:33:49 NAA output clNetEngine::Connect(): initialize: clALSAEngine::Initialize(): snd_pcm_open(): Device or resource busy

2024/09/17 12:33:50 NAA output network Audio IPv6 support disabled

2024/09/17 12:33:50 NAA output discovery from 0.0.0.0

& 2024/09/17 12:33:50 NAA output discovered network audio: name='ropieee [RoPieeeXL]' version='Signalyst Network Audio Daemon 5.0.1' @10.0.1.50:43210

2024/09/17 12:33:51 NAA output discovered 1 Network Audio Adapters

+ 2024/09/17 12:33:51 NAA output connect to 10.0.1.50:43210 [ipv4]

# 2024/09/17 12:33:51 NAA output clNetEngine::Connect(): initialize: clALSAEngine::Initialize(): snd_pcm_open(): Device or resource busy

2024/09/17 12:33:52 NAA output network Audio IPv6 support disabled

2024/09/17 12:33:52 NAA output discovery from 0.0.0.0

& 2024/09/17 12:33:52 NAA output discovered network audio: name='ropieee [RoPieeeXL]' version='Signalyst Network Audio Daemon 5.0.1' @10.0.1.50:43210

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output discovered 1 Network Audio Adapters

+ 2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output connect to 10.0.1.50:43210 [ipv4]

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output rate set unknown or empty, setting virtual rate

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output set sampling rate: 44100 (44100)

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output network format: 44100/32/2 [pcm]

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output network format: 48000/32/2 [pcm]

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output network format: 88200/32/2 [pcm]

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output network format: 96000/32/2 [pcm]

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output network format: 176400/32/2 [pcm]

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output network format: 192000/32/2 [pcm]

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output network format: 352800/32/2 [pcm]

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output network format: 384000/32/2 [pcm]

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output network format: 705600/32/2 [pcm]

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output network format: 768000/32/2 [pcm]

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output network format: 1411200/32/2 [pcm]

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output network format: 1536000/32/2 [pcm]

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output network format: 2822400/1/2 [dsd]

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output network format: 3072000/1/2 [dsd]

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output network format: 5644800/1/2 [dsd]

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output network format: 6144000/1/2 [dsd]

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output network format: 11289600/1/2 [dsd]

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output network format: 12288000/1/2 [dsd]

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output network format: 22579200/1/2 [dsd]

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output network format: 24576000/1/2 [dsd]

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output network format: 45158400/1/2 [dsd]

2024/09/17 12:33:53 NAA output network format: 49152000/1/2 [dsd]

 

Weird, I tried to time it, and in the last three times, it happened after precisely 22 minutes of play

3 hours ago, marcosax said:

Weird, I tried to time it, and in the last three times, it happened after precisely 22 minutes of play

 

And reconnection is successful 10 seconds after it got stuck. Which is the timeout inside NAA.

 

I would try with another endpoint hardware and OS. Without logs from the NAA side it is difficult to say more about the potential reasons.

 

thank you, Jussi.

But I wonder:

If it's the endpoint's fault, shouldn't this also happen when I play the stream to HOLO directly (with HOLO Audio Device Enabled in Roon)?

I quit HQPlayer and enabled the HOLO endpoint (through the Allo), and music has been flowing continuously for over an hour now...

 

I wrote to the Ropieee developer. I found the log command in Ropieee, but it looks like it can only send the log to the developer. I don't know how to see it at this end. I submit the issue to him as well, waiting a reply.

 

But, as I don't want to lose HQPlayer, and the HOLO Red looks quite expensive, I could follow your suggestion and try a cheaper alternative endpoint: Rpi4 or 5?

But, as usual, the offer of different models looks huge. 

Could you recommend the best and most reliable configuration (fanless) that works flawlessly with HQPlayer?

And should Amz have a ready kit you think fits the bill, could you PM it to me?

2 hours ago, marcosax said:

If it's the endpoint's fault, shouldn't this also happen when I play the stream to HOLO directly (with HOLO Audio Device Enabled in Roon)?

 

Are you using same output format from Roon as you are using from HQPlayer? Roon could be doing something differently as well. If you are comparing you should at least have same data bandwidth on both network on and USB towards the DAC.

 

I just know that overall Raspberry Pi3 is problematic because they cut a bit too many corners designing the hardware. By putting Ethernet controller on same USB bus where the type A connectors are, resulting in USB packet losses under heavy traffic. That's why I dropped support for it long time ago.

 

43 minutes ago, marcosax said:

But, as I don't want to lose HQPlayer, and the HOLO Red looks quite expensive, I could follow your suggestion and try a cheaper alternative endpoint: Rpi4 or 5?

 

Yes, as I suggested earlier, stock RPi4 with my NAA OS image is a good starting point. Known to work without issues up to DSD1024. And you can get passive cooling cases for both. And I recommend to get started with the official RPi4 or RPi5 PSU as well, respectively. If it doesn't end up being otherwise useful, at least you can use it as USB input device into HQPlayer. Running my NAA OS on it, you can also do both USB input and output simultaneously on it.

 

32 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Are you using same output format from Roon as you are using from HQPlayer? 

 

Well, actually, no. The whole point of using HQPlayer was to upsample (source)- 1.5M PCM and 256 DSD and use Roon at native rates.

Of course, the bandwidth is much higher from HQPlayer.

 

50 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

I just know that overall Raspberry Pi3 is problematic because they cut a bit too many corners designing the hardware. By putting Ethernet controller on same USB bus where the type A connectors are, resulting in USB packet losses under heavy traffic. That's why I dropped support for it long time ago.

 

For the sake of completeness, it looked like they managed to solve the issues: Allo USBridge Signature is based on an RPi, but they reduced noise to USB: https://www.allo.com/sparky/usbridge-signature-pcb.html

 

 

50 minutes ago, Miska said:

And I recommend to get started with the official RPi4 or RPi5 PSU as well, respectively. If it doesn't end up being otherwise useful, at least you can use it as USB input device into HQPlayer. Running my NAA OS on it, you can also do both USB input and output simultaneously on it.

 

 

sorry, I fail to imagine how I would be using USB input AND output, if the stream is coming from Ethernet. Furthermore , another USB output would need an additional DAC for another system, which I don't have

3 minutes ago, marcosax said:

sorry, I fail to imagine how I would be using USB input AND output, if the stream is coming from Ethernet. Furthermore , another USB output would need an additional DAC for another system, which I don't have

 

I connect for example iPad over USB to play Apple Music (lossless with automatic rate switching), or anything else I can play on iPad or iPhone, through HQPlayer to a DAC. It is kind of possible positive side effect you can get. Whether you actually need it or not. For that from a mobile device you need an inexpensive USB hub as well though, because the RPi draws some notable current.

 

thank you Jussi for the info, I followed your suggestion and I'm now in contact with Ropieee developer trying to solve this

hi @Miska while I am still waiting for a reply from Ropieee developer,

 just a hint: could it be down to my LAN which is around Apple Airport Extreme and 5 Airport Express ?   

2 hours ago, marcosax said:

hi @Miska while I am still waiting for a reply from Ropieee developer,

 just a hint: could it be down to my LAN which is around Apple Airport Extreme and 5 Airport Express ?   

 

Is the Express being a wireless bridge? If so, that could be potentially an issue, but always depends on radio conditions and such. I had Extreme and Express long time ago, but removed those when Apple discontinued their support.

 

My biggest suspicion is the endpoint. Especially RPi3 based hardware is known to have issues with high data rates due to the too much cost cutting hardware design. That's why I long ago discontinued RPi3 NAA OS images. And I believe Allo is based on RPi3? It is also not first time Allo endpoint having problems.

 

So I would primarily try with regular RPi4 running NAA OS as endpoint which is something that is known to work.

 

Or if you want to rule out the Apple network gear as an issue, just place simple unmanaged switches so that HQPlayer - NAA network traffic goes only through these switches, and then connect these switches to the internet router through a single cable. You can also connect everything else to these switches, no problem.

 

Basic switch requirements include at least gigabit speed and support for 802.3x and 802.1p standards. And preferably also for 802.3az, but that is not requirement.

 

thank you @Miska,

yes, all my Apple network devices (Extreme and Express) are in bridge mode.

My network looks like the attached screenshot.

At 10.0.1.1 is my mixed copper-fiber modem  (a Vodafone-branded Vox30 - can't remember) works as the router (with open ports and reserved IP adresses to most my devices (Macs or audio gear)...

From the router, a Cat 5e cabled network  goes to 3 Netgear unmanaged switches GS105G.

All my audio gear is connected to this wired LAN. Apple devices are used basically for wifi.

 

If you believe the culprit is the endpoint, I could go for a HOLO Red.

What still puzzles me, is that this is happening since a few updates back (I couldn't take note of which, if HQPlayer, Ropieee  or Roon)

 

1 minute ago, marcosax said:

From the router, a Cat 5e cabled network  goes to 3 Netgear unmanaged switches GS105G.

All my audio gear is connected to this wired LAN. Apple devices are used basically for wifi.

 

This should be perfectly fine. I doubt it would be the network infra.

 

1 minute ago, marcosax said:

If you believe the culprit is the endpoint, I could go for a HOLO Red.

 

That is good but more expensive option. If you'd like to try cheaper intermediate just for troubleshooting, then RPi4 is good option.

 

I have Holo Red and I know running my NAA OS on it works up to DSD1024 and 1.5M PCM. So OTOH, if this still had trouble, it would be at least elsewhere.

 

I have a Holo red and Cyan 2  and I have the same issue. Plays for about 25 minutes then stops. Then I have to restart host and target via Gentooplayer. If I were not do the noticeable sound improvement, I would give-up and pass on Diretta. I have a rasbPI 5 as my host. Im using  Gentooplayer and Roon, no Hqplayer 

This playing timeout is it intentional to get you to buy the target? Now I see, I only have to restart the target to get it to work.  I am still planning to purchase the diretta target. Will that resolve this issue?  

Solved ! If anyone else has issues with Roon losing connection to audio device, what seems to have worked for me is to adjust the Resync Delay in Roon's device setup to some value greater than 0ms. Its was not an issue with the Holo Red streamer or the DAC. See attached screen shot. There are many other things that can also cause this problem so your solution may be different.