Article: And Now For Some Serious Good Schiit (Skoll Yggy!)

48 minutes ago, bbosler said:

held the system back is pure conjecture. You did not hear it with digital, so you are guessing that vinyl held it back. Another equally valid guess is that, despite the flaws, playing vinyl allowed it to perform at the highest level it was capable of. You have nothing to support the idea that it would be better with digital other than your your preconceived notions.

If you think excessive pops, ticks, and surface noise are a positive, that’s ok. In my book, they hold a system back. In addition, I’ve never heard a piano with vibrato, unless it’s being reproduced from vinyl. 
 

50 minutes ago, bbosler said:

While I admire your passion for this hobby, I can't help but think that your dogmatic beliefs are holding you back.

What are these dogmatic beliefs? 
 

It isn’t a belief that music can’t be made more accurate by writing the digital file to a piece of plastic, then dragging a needle over it. It’s fact. 
 

53 minutes ago, bbosler said:

The difference between us, and please correct me if I am wrong about your experience, I have  lived with very high levels of both vinyl and digital for extended periods in my system while you have not.  I will leave it that because the debate is endless, and your mind is obviously made up............ like mine.

I’ve never lived with a turntable, but I’ve spent a lot of time listening to the best analog systems ever made. 
 

What do you mean that my mind is made up? I look at the facts, I listen, I render an opinion. This specific system was held back by vinyl. My mind about this specific system was made up after listening. 

5 minutes ago, bbosler said:

you published an article with both digital and vinyl devices so really not a surprise it would go in that direction

Reasonable people can read this article and not feel the need to argue about vinyl vs digital. 

3 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

This specific system was held back by vinyl.

The ONLY way you can state that as a fact is if you heard it with digital and the digital was superior. You did not.

Your statement is therefore dogmatic i.e. based on your beliefs, not facts.

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Reasonable people can read this article and not feel the need to argue about vinyl vs digital. 

yet you continue the argument  

8 minutes ago, bbosler said:

The ONLY way you can state that as a fact is if you heard it with digital and the digital was superior. You did not.

Your statement is therefore dogmatic i.e. based on your beliefs, not facts.

 

 

 

 

The vinyl version of Moonray has pops, ticks, and surface noise, in addition to a softness. The digital XRCD version has none of this. 
 

When I listened to this system, I was distracted by the flaws. If I could’ve heard the clean XRCD, it would’ve been much better. 
 

I don’t need to walk in front of a moving bus to know it would hurt. 

I asked for the Skoll so I could my vinyl collection. It is an excellent piece of kit. Somehow a positive experience turns into yet another and totally needless debate. But, I am the  bad guy. Ok then.

here's an interesting thought, at least it strikes me as interesting.

Why would a speaker manufacturer who is trying to sell speakers, not turntables,  who could have chosen probably any front end in the world, or at least one at the pinnacle of both vinyl and digital, choose to show off their speakers with a vinyl front end if it held back their speakers?

7 minutes ago, bbosler said:

 

here's an interesting thought, at least it strikes me as interesting.

 

Why would a speaker manufacturer who is trying to sell speakers, not turntables,  who could have chosen probably any front end in the world, or at least one at the pinnacle of both vinyl and digital, choose to show off their speakers with a vinyl front end if it held back their speakers?

 

I know the answer to this and it doesn’t support your argument. It’s also getting far from anything relevant to this review. 

7 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

bad guy

I don't see where anybody called you that? 

and really,...  it it is perfectly OK for Chris to criticize vinyl and draw conclusions about what he heard,  but if anybody disagrees with  him then they are the "bad guy" by engaging in  a "totally needless debate?"

so my final word on this is...... Seems to me if you don't want  vinyl/digital comparisons on this site, then don't start making them.

THE END

1 minute ago, bbosler said:

I don't see where anybody called you that? 

 

and really,...  it it is perfectly OK for Chris to criticize vinyl and draw conclusions about what he heard,  but if anybody disagrees with  him then they are the "bad guy" by engaging in  a "totally needless debate?"

 

so my final word on this is...... Seems to me if you don't want  vinyl/digital comparisons on this site, then don't start making them.

 

THE END

Bruce, did someone pee in your Wheaties this morning?

I sure hope not.

3 hours ago, ssh said:

" I invested in various top of the line studio analog to digital converters"

 

Any recommendations regarding ADCs?

I am using a Lynx Hilo as my ADC and I really like it.

https://www.lynxstudio.com/products/hilo/

edit: I see a Hilo 2 is out and I read this intriguing bit of news:

"Hilo 2: Upgrade path to higher sample rates above 192kHz and DSD on input and output."

25 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

I am using a Lynx Hilo as my ADC and I really like it.

It is a very fine device. I've had one and also had good luck with Antelope. RME, and Apogee gear. If you like the Lynx then you will be hard pressed to do any better. 

33 minutes ago, bbosler said:

 

It is a very fine device. I've had one and also had good luck with Antelope. RME, and Apogee gear. If you like the Lynx then you will be hard pressed to do any better. 

I do like it. Enough that I am struggling to come up with any justification for getting the Gen 2 device.

edit: By the way, I found the way to keep the vinyl "sound" in the digital recordings was to NOT use HQPlayer to do the RIAA equalization. I record the output from my Phono Pre which does the RIAA. I feel you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between one of my rips and the vinyl playing. It helps that I have a very speed stable Technics 1200, and that I clean the vinyl before ripping with a Degritter machine.

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Bruce, did someone pee in your Wheaties this morning?

now you've really opened a can of worms.

Wheaties is processed crap with salt and corn syrup, I'm a Heritage Flakes guy...

36 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

I found the way to keep the vinyl "sound" in the digital recordings was to NOT use HQPlayer to do the RIAA equalization. I record the output from my Phono Pre which does the RIAA. I

I used Pure Vinyl software to do the RIAA which was actually very good. If you have an old Mac Mini it is a cheap experiment. Currently won't work with newer Apple operating systems

https://www.channld.com/purevinyl/

34 minutes ago, bbosler said:

 

I used Pure Vinyl software to do the RIAA which was actually very good. If you have an old Mac Mini it is a cheap experiment. Currently won't work with newer Apple operating systems

 

https://www.channld.com/purevinyl/

 

 

 

Interesting, I was thinking about using their software and phono amps that don't do RIAA. But that's still a digital RIAA correction and while it may be essentially perfect, it likely doesn't sound like what's coming out of my phono amp. I am guessing that's where the "sound" lives, so to speak.

edit: When you say this software will not work on a new er mac, you're referring to Apple Silicon macs? Is there some reason that it doesn't work with the Rosetta translation layer?

edit 2: After some searching, I hate their website, I found the answer.

37 minutes ago, bbosler said:

 

now you've really opened a can of worms.

 

Wheaties is processed crap with salt and corn syrup, I'm a Heritage Flakes guy...

 

I love it Bruce!

4 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

edit: When you say this software will not work on a new er mac, you're referring to Apple Silicon macs? Is there some reason that it doesn't work with the Rosetta translation layer?

 

edit 2: After some searching, I hate their website, I found the answer.

right, Pure Vinyl  runs natively on Mac OS, but  I don't think he's updated the software in something like 10 years so it won't run on any of the M series or on the last 4-5 releases of the older intel versions of software. You have to get something like a 2014 Mini and put a really old OS on it. but they are cheap and it does work.  If I were you I would stick with what you've got and if he ever updates it then give it a go. 

19 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

If you think excessive pops, ticks, and surface noise are a positive, that’s ok. In my book, they hold a system back. In addition, I’ve never heard a piano with vibrato, unless it’s being reproduced from vinyl. 

I am not bringing this up to debate which is superior. My intention is to merely clear up some misconceptions.

Well maintained records played back on a quality system do not have "excessive pops, ticks, and surface noise." A record like this is either a defective pressing which does happen, or it has been abused. It is not the norm. I have about 4000 records and for the vast majority; pops and ticks are few and far between. Avoiding vinyl because  it occasionally happens is the equivalent of avoiding the symphony because someone occasionally coughs or sneezes.

With the volume way up you can hear some surface noise between songs, but on a quality system it is so much lower than the level of the music it never intrudes. To use the previous analogy, no more intrusive than people rustling in their seats between movements at the symphony. On my system at normal volumes on most records you can't even hear it.

The speed instability causing the piano vibrato is a symptom of either a poor turntable or a record pressed off center. The former is alleviated by using a quality table. The latter unfortunately does sometimes happen.

From a practical standpoint, dealing with setting up a turntable along with the  inevitable wear on the cartridge, and maintaining the records can make vinyl playback more complicated than playing a digital file. However, "excessive pops, ticks, and surface noise" are not reasons to avoid vinyl because the problem simply does not exist. On the other hand, plopping a record on a turntable seems pretty simple compared to the extreme measures some here are going to with clocks, multiple reclockers, multiple external power supplies, super routers, supercomputers, esoteric cables, upsampling programs, and the like to play back digital files.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program. 

All very valid points especially about all of the digital doodads. I am enjoying playing some of the well pressed records I have as I do not have them in file form, hence the Skoll. I do keep my digital system as simple as I can. 5TB hardrive connected to MacBook and right into the Yggy all controlled by AS. I love the convenience but vinyl can be fun on occasion.

42 minutes ago, bbosler said:

On the other hand, plopping a record on a turntable seems pretty simple compared to the extreme measures some here are going to with clocks, multiple reclockers, multiple external power supplies, super routers, supercomputers, esoteric cables, upsampling programs, and the like to play back digital files.

If all vinyl listeners in this hobby did was plop a record on a turntable, I’d back you up on this. However, I’d say the vinyl world has even more extreme measures than the digital world. 
 

That is beside the point though. Liking a playback medium is totally fine. I just start to get frustrated when people suggest it’s better to take the master digital file, write it to a piece of plastic, then drag a needle over it, and it’s better. Of course better is subjective, but by any objective standard, it can’t be more accurate to the source than the actual source. 
 

You have to search the world high and low for an actual vinyl record that was made with a completely analog process. I see now they are even playing word games by saying “all analog mastering” but say nothing about the rest of the process. Even when an all analog record is found, the pops, ticks, and noise present, however minimal, would all exclude any other medium from even being released to the public. If CD had those issues, it would still be just a patent. 

@bbosler I do like the fact that some vinyl pressings have more dynamic range than the digital counterparts. 

24 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

You have to search the world high and low for an actual vinyl record that was made with a completely analog process. 

 

I just start to get frustrated when people suggest it’s better to take the master digital file, write it to a piece of plastic, then drag a needle over it, and it’s better. Of course better is subjective, but by any objective standard, it can’t be more accurate to the source than the actual source.  

 

I do like the fact that some vinyl pressings have more dynamic range than the digital counterparts. 

Most everything released pre 1980 or so is  AAA. With over 22,000,000 pre 1980 records for sale on Discogs there's not much problem finding one.  There is actually a large amount of AAA vinyl being reissued these days too. Blue note has released 100's of titles this way and Atlantic is going through their catalog. just to name a few...  Some is digitally processed at some point though. 

As for digital recordings, objectively yes, but these same people may have (many like me definitely have) much more invested (time and money) into optimizing  everything beyond the needle than they do in their digital rigs, so it makes sense what they hear is "better."

And this is indisputable; ........   you can't clean the seeds out of your weed and roll a joint on a CD case like you can a gatefold album cover. which will definitely increase your dynamic range. Well, I can't actually confirm that,  but that's what a friend told me

24 minutes ago, bbosler said:

And this is indisputable; ........   you can't clean the seeds out of your weed and roll a joint on a CD case like you can a gatefold album cover. which will definitely increase your dynamic range. Well, I can't actually confirm that,  but that's what a friend told me

We are in agreement on this. 
 

24 minutes ago, bbosler said:

There is actually a large amount of AAA vinyl being reissued these days too

I struggle to believe this.