Battery Power For Audio - EcoFlow Pro

Thank you so much for this post - I found it while I was going through a TONNE of issues (McIntosh / Sonus Faber and a hum). Yours (and a few others) led me down this path to clean power.

 

THIS WORKS. 

 

This is my post to call out that Power Conditioners are snake oil and that these solutions work (I did EcoFlow). 

 

The industry doesn’t like this due to these being highly scaleable systems with economics that kill a StromTank. Yes it works. No the price point is stupid. And to the poster on certifications, these systems are all certified - so sure, get an electrician to install it versus DYI. Isn’t that like anything?

 

My journey can be read in the below link where I cover everything. The summary is this:

 

1. Have a McIntosh system (5 amps, MX123, C12000), and Sonus Faber speakers.

2. Installed new amps which are MC hybrids (half tube, half SS) and bi-amped them. Noticed a very loud hum.

3. Went though the following trouble shooting (and more) based on “feedback” from people in threads and “experts” in stores

 

- ground loop. NO. Turned off all breakers, disconnected all non-stereo systems (PS, blu-ray), was on dedicated 20AMP line. Still there so no ground loop. Also did all the other things - hum plugs, no ground plugs, moving to Audience FR power cables, etc. etc. Nothing. 

- noise in the system - tried Niagara 5000, Torus, Puritan, PS Audio and a few others, still noise

- Rejected those who said “Power Conditioners are not meant to reduce hum” - nonsense - read the TrippLite and Niagara which talk about reducing grounding noise and explicitly call out - hum. It should have helped.

- In the below post - the only solution I did not test was “rip out all the wiring in your new home and have it reinstalled” and “install a 8’ ground rod” (which is a actually wrong, should be 12’). No. My wiring is fine.

 

Then I read about StromTank which is - a fancy battery. That is it. The price is stupid - sorry.

 

Then I read this post and others. I went to Costco, bought an EcoFlow, and brought it into the stereo room plugged it in and VOILA. No noise. (Plugged into the 20amp).

 

GONE. Black as black can be.

 

The Niagara 5000 - no change in sound with or without it. It is a very expansive door stop other than:

 

1. It is another surge protector behind the battery

2. I have a 1800w Gravis VI that would go crazy due to draw issues. The Niagara has a power well to help with that (although the new EcoFlow handles 21KWh output when configured at max)

 

You can read all of the high quality challenges to my post below - where I methodically go through each. In this use case, the issue is dirty power, the sensitivity of a tube amp (It is bi-amped, and the SS component had no hum) and in the end ….

 

WORKS. SOLVED. 

 

The caveat being I have this actually in the stereo room (not wired to the whole house yet) so the fans get loud on a Delta Pro but are silent on the new Delta Pro Ultimate. I will get around to that .. when I have time (with an electrician - doing the whole house because I am DARN impressed).

 

Of interest, the toxic “audio expert” trolls are on full display as many posted derogatory comments without taking the time to add to the discussion. 

 

Sad really.

 

But many did make good challenges, which I went through line by line.

 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/amp-preamp-hum-power-conditioners-are-useless-snake-oil-batteries-do

 

THANK YOU. You are right!

 

And now .. I would not buy a StromTank. It works sure.

 

But I do not need it.

 

I solved the problem for 1/8th the price.

 

AS DID YOU!

 

12 hours ago, UberK said:

…….……

……..

solved the problem for 1/8th the price

 

from that audiogon link it sounds like you have a workaround but haven’t really worked out what is the root-cause of the specific problem in your system. Must be very frustrating…

 

 

@krass the only frustrating thing is people saying I am band-aiding the solution or not getting to root cause because they refuse to accept that this is solved. In this use case it is a ludicrous statement.

 

The only untested elements that have not been are:

 

1. Rip out all the relatively new wiring in my house. My wiring is good - so I reject this as the res is a couple years old. But I can not invalidate that suggestion without doing that silly thing. New residence. Certified wiring. No.

2. Bury a 8’ grounding rod (A suggestion - which is wrong - should be 12’). Not doing it.

3. Go to war with the power company

 

Furthermore, I have rejected this “root cause” ongoing push because:

 

1. The hum does not appear in all amps

2. The solution has been tested with and without the power conditioners

3. The bi-amping with the hybrid amp (tube/ss) has made it possible to determine this is only a tube problem.

4. Suggestions that I might burn down my house are ridiculous - and frankly, toxic fear mongering. Not a single breaker is being flipped - trolls go away.

 

In my area, the tube is picking up noise from power. No other amp or pre-amp is. Therefore, it is logical to conclude that there is something in the power causing noise..

 

Dirty power coming in impacting the tube.

 

Many tests conducted - ground loops, and on and on.

 

Power conditioners determined to be snake oil.

 

EcoFlow solves it.

 

PERFECT SOUND.

 

In the future, even if I have a new residence with no hum, I will be installing this.

@KingRex here is a system that is big load:

 

McIntosh MX123, C12000, MC451 (2), MC257, MC462, MI254, SF Amati G5, Olympica Nova II, I, CII, Gravis VI sub (1800 watt).

 

Mix of Valhalla 2, Tyr 2 cables. V2 for the C12000 and the Amati with V2 XLRs too.

 

Audience Front Row cables for power - in retrospect a waste, but they look nice.

 

EcoFlow Delta Pro Ultimate (as the Delta pro fans are really loud and the new system - March/24 scales in an amazing way)

 

Also includes a brick Niagara 5000 - per the above.

 

Worked brilliantly per this thread:

 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/amp-preamp-hum-power-conditioners-are-useless-snake-oil-batteries-do/post?postid=2676564#2676564

 

32 minutes ago, KingRex said:

Getting rid of a hum and improving overall system performance are 2 different things.  

 

Tube amps can create their own hum even with perfect power.  I have a very sensitive set of KT88 PP amps that I determined 1 tube was humming.  When replaced, I had about a 50% reduction.  I then moved the tubes in 1 monoblock from A to B position.  A little worse.  I then moved a single tube each from 1 mono to the other monoblock and all the hum went away.

 

Power conditioners have to be fed good power.  They don't fix poor wiring.  For them to work best, you have to feed them excellent power. Most don’t work well with amps.  They create a smaller sound stage, make the background unusually dark and damp dynamics.  Most don’t do this on the signal equipment.  Many can create a more pleasing sound on the signal equipment. 

 

A newer house most likely has 14 awg wire that jumps from box to box to box around a room.  This is a horrible circuit to plug audio equipment into.  Jumping from box to box introduces splices and ground loop issues.  The 14 awg wire is severly undersized.  Your starving your gear and have potential ground issues/voltage issues.  

 

Adding a ground rod does zero for noise reduction.  Its more about the branch wires and how they are terminated in a panel.  And the panel itself.  Newer panels are worse than many older panels.  Most new panels are all aluminum.   Aluminum is a detriment in audio systems.  

 

Solar and batteries.  I have not heard anyone say they hear the inverters when solar is added.  I have heard a fair amount of feedback on battery systems.  The data is hit and miss.  With Stromtank, universally people say they like it on the front end.  I have heard smaller amps used with success.  I have heard some larger amps loose some dynamics. Sometimes not.  It generally a large amp gets clean and smooth but a small reduction in punch.  The major issue with Stromtank is cost. 

FWIW, there are other battery systems that have a ton of negstive feedback to go with the positive. 

 

I have some off grid customers that got me looking into battery system.  My thought to do one correctly, that may work, is a large inverter with 3% or less THD.  They all have THD, some well over 5%.  Inverters make more distortion when underpowered, the least distortion with about a 20% to 60% load.  Significant noise loaded over 80%. If you were to do your homework and get a really good inverter that put out a steady 30 to 40 amps, used good 48 volt Lithium batteries and followed the inverter with a Torus RM20 minimum,  I think you could make a battery supply that would have equivalent power and performance to 2 x S5000.  It would cost about $14,000 in parts.  

 

With that kind of money, you could correct the power going to your rack.  I believe a solid foundation is best. A good foundation is never a detriment.  Everything improves.  When power is optimized, bass gains a dynamic crack and speed no filter will ever match.  And using an all copper panel can create a very heard reduction in noise, calm in the room and removal of glare in the system.  All copper to me means every phase, neutral and ground is copper.  Every lug is copper.  SqD is the only company that makes one.  Ordered fully assembled by the plant can take 6 months to a year to get.  I buy the parts separate from my distributor and assemble them in my shop. Its the only way to have the materials on hand.  I have enough lugs to make about 14 more panels.  After that I may not be able to make any more.  I have been waiting for a year to get a new batch.  The lugs alone cost me $360 for a set. 

 

I still have not met a system where the amps did not play better when a Torus was added and the Torus was fed properly.  Some people have said they don't like Torus due to a compression of dynamics.  They have not eplained what they did to feed the unit.  I asume they mearly plugged it into a wall like all the other power conditioners.   That is not the correct way to feed any power conditioner.

There is noise on the power line.  But don't forget,  inverters make their own noise. If you are in a walk up and can not improve the power to the rack,  a battery system may be an option.  To do it right is not inexpensive.  And yes, the fans in them can hum and the inverter itself can squeal.  The fact that a low quality $300 unit is better than wall power is a testiment to how bad the wiring from the utility service atrike, through the panel and to the rack really is.  

Rex

 

Well, then tell the electricians and all the building codes they are wrong.

 

Stromtanks are batteries - have you listened to one of those?

Power, hum, noise, etc... are serious issues. They can drive a person to drink. I've found that nothing is better than experience, when it comes to crafting a solution. Everyone has an opinion and a textbook solution that "should" work. But, the reality on the ground is often a soup sandwhich. Plus, one's power situation isn't static. We connect new things all the time, introducing more variables and potential issues. 

 

I like reading about what people have done and why, no matter if I think it's strange or the same thing I would probably do. 

29 minutes ago, botrytis said:

 

Well, then tell the electricians and all the building codes they are wrong.

 

Stromtanks are batteries - have you listened to one of those?

Yes.  Twice.  In homes in systems. Its very good.  Expensive. 

Just now, KingRex said:

Yes.  Twice.  In homes in systems. Its very good.  Expensive. 

 

Well, the gent who designed Stromtank also designed MBL speakers.

26 minutes ago, botrytis said:

Well, then tell the electricians and all the building codes they are wrong.

...it's not that it's wrong; the NEC wasn't developed to sound good to audio folks. There are things we can do that are code-compliant *and* enhance our gear. I think that was the earlier point. 
 

My power is pretty good here and I have taken pains to optimize things; for me, the Stromtank made no difference I and an audio friend could discern, in multiple arrangements (eg: server only, server and dac, etc.).

The NEC is a bare minimum.  Builders looking to maximize profits built the lowest quality product,  meeting code minimum to maximize profits.

 

The code writing committee does not care about you and your stereo.  They care about life, safety and standardized rules to apply to everything.  

 

FWIW,  when I wired  data centers and hospital patient recovery or surgery room, the electrical specifications were  hundreds of pages.  They are all about providing superior electrical service to equipment in the room.  Nothing is buillt to code minimum.  Its all overbuilt for reliability and performance.  

 

Contractor provided wiring in your home that was not purpose installed for audio or AV is not at all suited to power  highly sensitive amplifying equipment found on your audio rack.  A well done for audio system electrical supply with multiple 10 awg branch circuits and a properly made up stock SqD QO or Eaton CH loadcenter will get you a good distance towards quality power for a stereo.  An all copper panelboard and additional attention to how circuits are run and terminated get you to the highest level.  At the point of a properly terminated loadcenter and 10 awg branch wires you can start accurately assessing what filters are really doing.  As well as ground boxes.  

3 minutes ago, KingRex said:

The NEC is a bare minimum.  Builders looking to maximize profits built the lowest quality product,  meeting code minimum to maximize profits.

 

The code writing committee does not care about you and your stereo.  They care about life, safety and standardized rules to apply to everything.  

 

FWIW,  when I wired  data centers and hospital patient recovery or surgery room, the electrical specifications were  hundreds of pages.  They are all about providing superior electrical service to equipment in the room.  Nothing is buillt to code minimum.  Its all overbuilt for reliability and performance.  

 

Contractor provided wiring in your home that was not purpose installed for audio or AV is not at all suited to power  highly sensitive amplifying equipment found on your audio rack.  A well done for audio system electrical supply with multiple 10 awg branch circuits and a properly made up stock SqD QO or Eaton CH loadcenter will get you a good distance towards quality power for a stereo.  An all copper panelboard and additional attention to how circuits are run and terminated get you to the highest level.  At the point of a properly terminated loadcenter and 10 awg branch wires you can start accurately assessing what filters are really doing.  As well as ground boxes.  

 

RIGHT the same codes that they use for houses they use also in industrial and used for Scientific equipment, etc. If they are not affected why is AUDIO so special? It isn't.

22 minutes ago, botrytis said:

 

Well, the gent who designed Stromtank also designed MBL speakers.

I like MBL too.  Whats your point?

My gripe with Stromtank is a S5000 is around $60k.  A well done electrical power supply with a wall mount Torus or Equitech would be far superior on amps.  And you would save $40k.

 

If your in a NY walk up or just can not get  better power to your rack.  Get a Stromtank.  

 

FWIW Stromtank offered to make me a distributor.   I did not feel it was better than what I make with a properly applied electrical supply.  If I was a distributor and sold 1 x S5000 I would make the same take home I do selling 15 panels. Each panel takes me 14 or so hours to complete.  I do what I do because I have overseen 100 plus installations.  I know what a propper electrical power supply does for audio equipment.   Call me a fool, but making money isn't the end goal for everyone.  I would rather help people do it right.  

...residential buildings don't have to comply as if they were hospitals. It's a different aspect of the code spec. Sure, it's all covered by the NEC (in the US) but the context/application matters. Even wet environments or places with corrosive aspects, etc. 

14 minutes ago, KingRex said:

The NEC is a bare minimum.  Builders looking to maximize profits built the lowest quality product,  meeting code minimum to maximize profits.

 

The code writing committee does not care about you and your stereo.  They care about life, safety and standardized rules to apply to everything.  

 

100%

 

My relative has been an electrician forever, and does all my electrical stuff for my listening room. On job sites the rule is, "the code is the maximum." He hated that, but it was the reality. When "nobody" is going to know the difference between meeting the code or installing an awesome system, capable of great power, there is no reason to go beyond the code. 

 

When he works on my system he absolutely loves it because he can do what he always wants to do on job sites. 

23 minutes ago, botrytis said:

 

RIGHT the same codes that they use for houses they use also in industrial and used for Scientific equipment, etc. If they are not affected why is AUDIO so special? It isn't.

 Please, no one listen to botrytis.  This is the type poster that misleads and creates confusion.  He is incorrect in his assertions.  

 

 I have nothing more to say on this person or his comments.  I hope everyone else will understand why I am no longer acknowledging his posts.  

19 hours ago, UberK said:

Thank you so much for this post - I found it while I was going through a TONNE of issues (McIntosh / Sonus Faber and a hum). Yours (and a few others) led me down this path to clean power.

 

THIS WORKS. 

 

This is my post to call out that Power Conditioners are snake oil and that these solutions work (I did EcoFlow). 

 

The industry doesn’t like this due to these being highly scaleable systems with economics that kill a StromTank. Yes it works. No the price point is stupid. And to the poster on certifications, these systems are all certified - so sure, get an electrician to install it versus DYI. Isn’t that like anything?

 

My journey can be read in the below link where I cover everything. The summary is this:

 

1. Have a McIntosh system (5 amps, MX123, C12000), and Sonus Faber speakers.

2. Installed new amps which are MC hybrids (half tube, half SS) and bi-amped them. Noticed a very loud hum.

3. Went though the following trouble shooting (and more) based on “feedback” from people in threads and “experts” in stores

 

- ground loop. NO. Turned off all breakers, disconnected all non-stereo systems (PS, blu-ray), was on dedicated 20AMP line. Still there so no ground loop. Also did all the other things - hum plugs, no ground plugs, moving to Audience FR power cables, etc. etc. Nothing. 

- noise in the system - tried Niagara 5000, Torus, Puritan, PS Audio and a few others, still noise

- Rejected those who said “Power Conditioners are not meant to reduce hum” - nonsense - read the TrippLite and Niagara which talk about reducing grounding noise and explicitly call out - hum. It should have helped.

- In the below post - the only solution I did not test was “rip out all the wiring in your new home and have it reinstalled” and “install a 8’ ground rod” (which is a actually wrong, should be 12’). No. My wiring is fine.

 

Then I read about StromTank which is - a fancy battery. That is it. The price is stupid - sorry.

 

Then I read this post and others. I went to Costco, bought an EcoFlow, and brought it into the stereo room plugged it in and VOILA. No noise. (Plugged into the 20amp).

 

GONE. Black as black can be.

 

The Niagara 5000 - no change in sound with or without it. It is a very expansive door stop other than:

 

1. It is another surge protector behind the battery

2. I have a 1800w Gravis VI that would go crazy due to draw issues. The Niagara has a power well to help with that (although the new EcoFlow handles 21KWh output when configured at max)

 

You can read all of the high quality challenges to my post below - where I methodically go through each. In this use case, the issue is dirty power, the sensitivity of a tube amp (It is bi-amped, and the SS component had no hum) and in the end ….

 

WORKS. SOLVED. 

 

The caveat being I have this actually in the stereo room (not wired to the whole house yet) so the fans get loud on a Delta Pro but are silent on the new Delta Pro Ultimate. I will get around to that .. when I have time (with an electrician - doing the whole house because I am DARN impressed).

 

Of interest, the toxic “audio expert” trolls are on full display as many posted derogatory comments without taking the time to add to the discussion. 

 

Sad really.

 

But many did make good challenges, which I went through line by line.

 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/amp-preamp-hum-power-conditioners-are-useless-snake-oil-batteries-do

 

THANK YOU. You are right!

 

And now .. I would not buy a StromTank. It works sure.

 

But I do not need it.

 

I solved the problem for 1/8th the price.

 

AS DID YOU!

 

What EcoFlow did you get.  I went to the site and its interesting.  I have never spent the time creating a batter supply for people as someone such as Ecoflow can make something professional.  And I can't really mark up the parts to make money for my time if people can get the same stuff from the manufacture for the price I get it.  There is little to no discount on solar batteries and inverters.  Even the big installers get little to no savings over what I would get if you or I called a distributor and asked to purchase one.

 

The Delta Pro Ultra looks the part.  You can add batteries as needed.   https://www.ecoflow.com/us/delta-pro-ultra

I see each 50 AH battery is about $3K.  Fair price if its lithium.

I see an inverter that puts out 30 Amps into 2 phases.  So 50A output total into a single phase.

I would not mess with the wall mount unit for audio.  That is going to add hardware and connection points. 

I would try it as is.  I would also look into feeding a Torus WM40BAL or WM60BAL from the output.  Especially if it has a single high output connection where you can put the full 30A x 240Volt output to the unit.

 

I have found it very difficult to get any specifics on the battery and inverter.  I had to call the company.  I am waiting on information to be sent to me.  The battery matters.  Lithium work better than other types.  Led Acid is not that good.  Either are the nickel based ones.  Batteries are also prone to catching fire during charging.  There is better technology that shuts down cells that are getting too hot.  I have not seen anything on the battery protection.

The inverter itself if the key component.  There are True sine wave inverters and Modified sine wave inverters.  A true sine wave has many more steps to make a complete sine wave.  A Modified inverter has far fewer and sine wave is very jagged.  Modified suck for audio.  They don't really work well for a lot of things.  But they are inexpensive and make higher power for less money.

 

The problem with asking someone like yourself to make a public assessment is you don't have a good power supply to your rack.  From what I have read you have a bad power supply to the rack.  Its maybe only 14awg wire that goes around the room.  Its part of the original build.   You probably have multiple connections that are stab into the back of a duplex and back out again.  These are the worst devices you can use.  They start fires.  They are the reason we have to install $75 AFCI breakers.  So many were burning down houses.  Instead of outlawing them and making the electrician wrap the wire around a screw and tighten it down, they make the breaker manufacturer create an expensive breaker that senses the arc and open the breaker.  If you had dedicated 10 awg to your rack terminated to a single duplex, then your perceptions would be more valid.  At that point I would want to know what you thought of the Ecoflow compared to a Torus.  Or any other filter for that matter.  Especially a Stromtank?????  Just how good is the inverter in a Stromtank???  So far Stromtank is the best battery supply.  But why?  Can a commercial unit better it?

4 minutes ago, KingRex said:

So far Stromtank is the best battery supply.  But why?  Can a commercial unit better it?

...some of us are hoping the new Taiko battery and BMS can up the game for audio. Expected to ship after the Munich show; expected to be shown at the Munich show. 

5 minutes ago, MarkusBarkus said:

...some of us are hoping the new Taiko battery and BMS can up the game for audio. Expected to ship after the Munich show; expected to be shown at the Munich show. 

Yea, but that is only powering a DAC?  And maybe the server?  Its not a battery with a 30A x 240 volt output made to power the rest of the rack? 

 

Ecoflow just sent a link that sent me back to their page.  They don't publish any data on THD, noise from fans, inverter frequency.  I have found other companies that are making off grid inverters that are much more forthcoming with this information.  But they are more work.  It take custom jumper wires and custom distribution power strips to connect it all.  They put out loads more power too.  Some close to 100A max.  They are big and heavy and usually go on a wall.

My gut tells me Stromtank is an off the shelf inverter and battery.  But, they have lashed it together with copper wire and used good outlets.  Maybe they have something else inside.  I looked inside one and its full of stuff.  

 

I have always wondered why PurePower has such mixed reviews.  On the surface its no different than a Stromtank or Ecoflow.  Its a battery and inverter with duplex attached and a power cord to charge from the wall.  From what I hear, the smallest Purepower sounds the best.  The larger ones are not as well reviewed. 

 

For now I stand behind making the electrical infrastructure as optimum as can be.  It never fails.  Its fundamentally the right thing to do.  If you don't want to do that, use a Stromtank.   Go for it.  I can see how people feel it easy to buy something and set it on the floor.  It satisfies that itch of owning Stuff.  And it take up a load of room and is something to stare at.

@KingRex

The problem with asking someone like yourself to make a public assessment is you don't have a good power supply to your rack.  From what I have read you have a bad power supply to the rack.  Its maybe only 14awg wire that goes around the room.  Its part of the original build.   You probably have multiple connections that are stab into the back of a duplex and back out again.  These are the worst devices you can use.  They start fires.  They are the reason we have to install $75 AFCI breakers.  So many were burning down houses. 

 

No. I do not have faulty power. 

 

1. It is a new residence lived in for 2 years, at the 7 figure level.

2. The build is impeccable quality - and all trades were certified.

3. I have renovated 3 houses. A 110+ year old victorian (with contractors), and multiple other homes. In ever case, electrical and ethernet were micromanaged. Big panels, high quality products. 

4. The systems are run on a dedicated 20AMP line.

 

To your point, when I have this installed for the entire home, it will be done by an electrician. At this point I just have it dedicated to the system - and it is in a 20AMP outlet alone, with a GFCI.

 

I initially bought the EcoFlow Delta Pro - but the fans are loud and I do not like how it scales. 

 

I had it for 2 days and they announced the Ultra. I love it because:

 

1. Massive scalability by adding new systems

2. Very quiet. Zero noise.

 

Ecoflow has a great app for management also. There are many - Goal Zero is also fantastic.

 

I would have bought the StromTank I the pricing were more reasonable. 

3 hours ago, Jud said:

When looking at solar and battery supplies for audio, there’s something you will want to remember.

 

I researched these a few years ago, and the very best inverter specification I saw was 2% harmonic distortion. Utility regulation in the vast majority of the US sets 2% as the maximum harmonic distortion for power delivered to your home by the utility. So it’s quite likely your source will be cleaner coming from the utility rather than solar or battery. (I did not research systems such as the Stromtank to see whether their inverter specs were any better.)

 

What is responsible for “dirty power” is almost certainly nothing occurring outside the home, but rather what happens in the home. LED lights, motors for heat pumps, air conditioners, refrigerators, etc., microcontrollers (these days that can be anything from a toaster to a thermostat) will all put noise on the line. And of course there’s the wiring for your audio system and any ground and noise loops that may be involved. The usual safety measures involving sacrificial MOVs can also be sources of noise.

 

There are ways to be safe and “sound” (as in good sound) that don’t have to involve multiple tens of thousands of dollars. There are used isolation transformers with great specs, separate circuits for audio systems, optical fiber, safety equipment such as that made by ZeroSurge and others, that won’t break the bank.

Partially agree.

 

Yes, loads of noise comes from your house. 

 

I will make this 2 part.  Not all isolation transformers are equal.  Torus and Equitech are much better as a filter than other unless you get very esoteric and expensive.  Controlled power is a strong second but they are more for studios that have a panel fed from it powering the record/mix room.  Other commercial units are not filters.  They only change voltage.  Don't waste your money.

 

Being that not all transformers are good filters means the transformer on the power pole is not designed to be a good filter.  I doubt they have any shielding between the laminates.  And the windings are maybe aluminum.  

All the noise from everyones house and business is  passing through the utility transformerr and onto the main.   Street power is noisy.  It is best to clean it.  Usually not necessary.    But its a good option if you have the budget.   

 

Surge protection is dependent on good grounding.  That is the reason you want a good ground.

Surge protection works 2 ways.  Either way I don't believe I have ever met someone who heard a SPD.  The guys who sell them claim all sorts of stuff.  Here is the skinny.  

SPD can be designed to adress 2 types of suges.  Catastrophic (lightning) and micro (40 volt over fundimental wave micro surges).   Micro surge arrestors are also called Sine Wave Tracking or Sine Wave Correction, Active Sine Wave Tracking. 

Most every SPD is some form of lightning protection with little micro protection. They are not designed to track that close to the sine wave as they would quickly oerheat and fail.   If you paid under $500 its lighning only.  If your in a high lightning area there is nothing at all wrong with stacking 2, 3 even 4 in a panel.  The more the better.  Look for 60kA.  22kA is not enough. 100kA to 200kA plus in high lightning area is preferable. 

 

Micro surge arrestor are good for clearing micro arcs from your home like when a switche open and close, motors turning off and the resultant jolt from the magnetic field collapsing. 

 

SPD do not address high freq noise from SMPS, Wifi etc.  Filters address that noise. 

 

High freq noise is on the power line.  Lots of it.   Micro surges less so.  The utility transformer will clear a lot of that.  Micro comes from your own home.  Catastrophic surges are from the utility.  Maybe 30,000 volts if a major equipment failure or 200,000 if lightning hits a power line.  

 

A good SPD that address all types of surges in a meaningfull way cost about $2500.  

 

 

 

@Jud perhaps. Inside the house I did this to eliminate the LED, etc noise to rule out a ground loop:

 

- turned off all breakers but the dedicated 20AMP to the sound system

- removed all devices that were not McIntosh (game systems, HiFiRose, etc.)

 

Hum was still there for only the tube. There was no hum for the other 4 amps or the part of the hybrid amp that was SS.

 

The amp is hybrid tube/SS and bi-amped to the speaker so even in the speaker - only the speaker able to the tube part of the amp hummed. 

 

There is something there that only the tube is picking up. 

 

As I put in my post - I tried a lot of audio solutions - power conditioners, etc. that claim to help with these issues with zero results.

 

With the power coming from the battery, worked perfectly and I did not find the pricing outrageous as these solar systems are at massive scale.

 

CES had a lot of choices and more emerging. This is mainstream technology, not niche audio.

2 hours ago, UberK said:

@KingRex

The problem with asking someone like yourself to make a public assessment is you don't have a good power supply to your rack.  From what I have read you have a bad power supply to the rack.  Its maybe only 14awg wire that goes around the room.  Its part of the original build.   You probably have multiple connections that are stab into the back of a duplex and back out again.  These are the worst devices you can use.  They start fires.  They are the reason we have to install $75 AFCI breakers.  So many were burning down houses. 

 

No. I do not have faulty power. 

 

1. It is a new residence lived in for 2 years, at the 7 figure level.

2. The build is impeccable quality - and all trades were certified.

3. I have renovated 3 houses. A 110+ year old victorian (with contractors), and multiple other homes. In ever case, electrical and ethernet were micromanaged. Big panels, high quality products. 

4. The systems are run on a dedicated 20AMP line.

 

To your point, when I have this installed for the entire home, it will be done by an electrician. At this point I just have it dedicated to the system - and it is in a 20AMP outlet alone, with a GFCI.

 

I initially bought the EcoFlow Delta Pro - but the fans are loud and I do not like how it scales. 

 

I had it for 2 days and they announced the Ultra. I love it because:

 

1. Massive scalability by adding new systems

2. Very quiet. Zero noise.

 

Ecoflow has a great app for management also. There are many - Goal Zero is also fantastic.

 

I would have bought the StromTank I the pricing were more reasonable. 

You have a single 12 awg wire.  That's not adequate or correct.  But its a lot better than a general purpose 14 awg wire.

 

You have told us you have 1 amp out of 4? That has a hum issue.  

 

Your basing your assertion filters are snake oil on a single metrix.  Does your amp hum.  I have not seen you comment at all on clarity, sound stage, bass response.  Just hum.  I have heard filters that shut down noise, make the background black, suck all the life from bass, close in the soundstage.  Just destroy the music.  That is what I have heard certain brands of filters do in my house and others once you sort your electrical properly.  You notice the damage the filter is doing.  

I do not think changing the electrical supply to your rack will make your amp hum go away with more appropriate circuits to your rack.  I think that one amp has some issues or the tubes have issues.   If your battery got rid of the noise, great.   Odd, but great.   What other impacts did it have on the playback?  It didn't just impact hum.  It did other stuff.  Can you compare the way the amps perform direct to the wall or in the EcoFlow.

You really should have 3 circuits to your rack.  1 for amps, 1 for signal, 1 for digital.  A other for subs if you have them.  You have a lot of gear on a single 12 awg.  That is  not optimum.   But I'm curious how they compare. 

 

 

@KingRex to address your questions 1 at a time.

 

1. You have a faulty amp

 

I have 5 amps. The hum comes from 2 brand-new amps - MC451s. They are bi-amped into Amati G5s. The Bi-amping is with Valhalla 2 cables (have also tested others). The hum comes from both speakers - meaning both amps are experiencing the hum. The hum is only on the tube side driving the top speakers, with the SS side of the amp being black and clean.

 

The other 3 amps do not have this issue. I have also had a NAD M17V2i running in this residence and a M28 amp. No issues. Just the tubes.

 

The manufacturer suggested I break them in - that did nothing (run for 100 hours).

 

2. You have a faulty pre-amp.

 

I have 2 pre-amps. MX123 and C12000. The C12000 operates in passthu mode with the MX123 when I watch TV/blu-ray/etc.

 

The hum is there when in stereo mode with the C12000.

 

The hum is there when in passthru mode with the MX123.

 

3. Changing the electrical to my rack DID eliminate the hum.

 

- 20AMP dedicated line to the rack - has hum with or without a myriad of tested power conditioners (see the OP in the link).

- EcoFlow added - zero hum. None. Black as black.

 

4. Power Conditioners as Snake oil. Here is what they claim:

What benefits can I expect from a Power Conditioner?

• Protect sensitive electronic equipment from damage or data loss
• Improve the quality of audio recording or playback by removing line noise that causes "hum"
• Extend the life of equipment containing electronic circuits

https://tripplite.eaton.com/products/power-conditioner-buying-guide#:~:text=What is a Power Line,voltage fluctuations and power surges.

 

Niagara

The Niagara 5000 features our patented AC ground noise dissipation system, the industry’s widest bandwidth linearized AC filter, and our unique passive / active transient power correction circuitry.

 

In my use case - it did nothing. I tried AudioQuest Niagara, iFi (still have one), Furman, Torus, Puritan (I had real hopes about this one as it seemed different). 

 

When I added the EcoFlow - it eliminated all hum and the sound was clean. Amazing sound.

 

Of interest, the one issue my Niagara 5000 did solve was a product defect in the Sonus Faber Gravis VI. It is a 1800W sub - and occasionally it went "insane". (I have the videos). It would just go nuts (loudly). When this happened, pulling the XLR would not stop it - it was an internal "go nuts" and the only way to stop it was to unplug it. 

 

They had no idea what was going on and in fact replaced it (which was a huge pain as the thing is massive) - and it kept happening. I diagnosed it on my own that if it did not get a full draw when it needed it - that was causing the issue (I asked them to validate that - they did not). 

 

The Niagara 5000 has a power well on with a 90A reserve. While I was doing the whole hum thing, I theorized that the draw was the issue with the SF and it worked. Since putting that in place - no issue.

 

I have yet to get around to unplugging the Niagara (To your point - lots not he web about these things ruining sound - but I find it neutral) and theorize that as the Ecoflow Ultra 7.2kW of output in the base config that it can serve the need without the need for the reservoirs. 

 

The Ecoflow is a beast offering up to 21kW of output. https://www.ecoflow.com/us/delta-pro-ultra

 

5. What about power cables? 

 

Another snake oil but my cognitive bias likes the look of them, so I am fine with the investment with no return. All cables are Audience Front Row. They look amazing and are beasts.

 

I had initially used iFi SupaNova cables but they are limited as they only offer one length. The power cables to the 451s are 3m.