Battery Power For Audio - EcoFlow Pro

Thank you guys for all the details and for keeping the discussion cordial. 
 

This reminded me of the hum I used to have with my MC275. I turned off all the circuits in my house and had just the 275 powered on (via my dedicated audio sub-panel), and still had hum. It drove me nuts. 
 

The resolution was proper grounding, not better / cleaner power, in my specific case.

@The Computer Audiophile yes on cordial, I will admit to getting a bit animated in my other post, especially when the derogatory comments and trolling began. 

Lively debate leads to lots of learning. 

For me, grounds are good. And tested - and ya, it is super annoying. Especially as it was not coming through anywhere else (like the ... how peculiar to have one side of the amp humming, and the other not! (As it is hybrid) .. and as the 2 pre-amps are different (the C12000 having tubes, and the MX123 not) .. provided a wide field of choice to test. Nothing coming out of the MC257 .. 462 or MI254 (feeding atmos).

Pulling my hair out for 4 months till I figured out the EcoFlow.

That is why I posted it - as it was such a tangential find for me and outside the "audiophile" realm. 

And so reasonably priced. These things start at $1K. 

SO THANKS. This article is what got me down this path. 

After wasting a small fortune on the Niagara 5000 and their fancy cable .. and a myriad of other things .. this was a godsend.

My only real disappointment through the whole experience was McIntosh and how they made no effort to assist. I would think that they would want to test these things in a myriad of use cases to provide support, as you identify you have these issues. I come from a tech world, and we do solution test WAY beyond our own tech as to only consider our parameters is a disservice to our customers (who would not accept that answer from us). A common issue for those of us in tech. Unfortunately, this is what I had heard from many dealers - they love the tech, but the company is lacking from a support point of view.

I detest finger pointing from a vendor - especially one at the top of the price scale.

45 minutes ago, UberK said:

Pulling my hair out for 4 months till I figured out the EcoFlow.

It's kind of funny, I'd looked at EcoFlow for a couple other items and never considered it for HiFi until you said you used it. Thanks for sharing.

46 minutes ago, UberK said:

I detest finger pointing from a vendor - especially one at the top of the price scale.

Yes! I've been trying to figure out how I can provide more information to people about manufacturers, distributors, dealers, and support, when I do product reviews. All of these items are so important. Yet, most people seem hung up on "how does it sound?" Actually it sounds silent if it isn't working and there's subpar support. 

There are some companies that i will never do business with, and I still see people buying up their products as if it's a fire sale. I shake my head, knowing it's not going to end well. 

Sales, service, support, etc... should all be at the highest level when we're talking about high end audio. 

I hear you UberK.  I am not saying the experience you had is not real.  

What I am saying is I have rarely seen a power conditioner get rid of 60 or 120 cycle hum out of the speakers.  They get rid of hum you hear emanating from the unit itself.  They make a more quiet background and maybe take down a little hum/noise in the room.  But i can't personally recall hearing someone say they had tube noise hum stopped by a filter. 

Stromtank has done this one time and the power cord itself had to be removed from the wall so it was fixing a ground loop issue.  Source was in the Stromtank, amps to the wall.   

Its highly unusual that a filter would fix a speaker hum issue by filtering RF noise, which is what most all filters do. Filters do not filter ground issues.  Unplugging from the wall does fix ground issues.

RF does cause a lot of hum with phono systems.  This is almost universally an issue with the phono preamp allowing RF entering through the air and attaching to the equipment and modulating into the power supply of the phono preamp.  A filter to the power cord of a the phono equipment will do nothing as the RF is not in the utility power.  Its in the air and attaching to phono cables, cartridges, chassis of equipment.  A battery power supply would do nothing either.  A Faraday cage might work. 

I have seen proper wiring fix hum when it was a ground a few times.  I saw it at Fremers and a couple other houses. 

The Ecoflow might be breaking a ground issue.   If everything is plugged into the EcoFlow and nothing into the wall, you are probably breaking a ground issue.  Does not explain why a Denali would not do the same if you plugged everything into it. 

Did you plug everything into other filters?  All of it.  Did you plug everything into the EcoFlow?

Filters will provide some protection to equipment, but only surge protection if they have built in SPD. 

MORE CLARIFICATION. 

An AQ, Shunyata, Isoteck,  Furman Etc will allow your equipment to be destroyed in a brown out.  The only protection from a brown out is a Ecoflow, PS Audio Regenerator, Stromtank, Torus AVR or a filter purpose designed to adjust the output voltage during a brown out.   The unit has to be designed to maintain 120 volt output and to shut down completely and not power cycle on and off to truely protect in brown outs.   

The fact you said hum from tube equipment was eliminated by an Ecoflow is unusual in the filter of the Ecoflow fixing something other filters did not.  Especially since Ecoflow has up to 8% thd.  I have rarely seen THD that high from the utility.  Its usually 3% to 5%.  The better battery systems I have investigated have less than 3% thd    

I am hesitant to tell any audiophile to get a Ecoflow residential battery backup as a power supply to an audio system.  I have not heard you or anyone else sit down with the unit and do a propper analysis.   Audiophile are most always buying something to improve sound quality.  And to fix hum issues.  I have not heard any clear and thoughtful analysis on how this unit changed what you hear from the system.  Your electrical is not of a condition to make a fair comparison of the unit to good power.  Your electrical would provide a good comparison of the Ecoflow to insufficient power.  Maybe help people better understand it as an option if getting good power to the rack is not an option.   $6k for the Ecoflow does quite often get 4 dedicated circuits to the rack. 

It would be nice if you had a friend over so its not just you and do a real analysis.  Plug the amps into the wall and listen.  Plug the amps in the Ecoflow, listen.  Plug the front end in the wall and Eco, listen.  Plug everything into the Eco and wall and listen.  You own it.  No one else does.  What does it do to sound, compared to a stereo fed by a single 12 awg wire. You will be one data point. 

PurePower and PS Audio have loads of data point.  They are not nearly as consistent as Stromtank for a battery system.  PS Audio isn't really a battery either.  Its a regenerator.  Anyhow, it would shock me if a built to power residential devices  bettered purpose built audio device.  Can't say it would not happen.  But unusual it would be.  

Lastly I have seen a lot of audio devices that are supposed to make your system sound better and they do the exact opposite.   So "Audiophile" design does appear to have its limitations.  

One last point.  I never heard you talk about putting a shorting plug into the input of the amp and attaching to the speaker only.  Then turning the amp on.

If you still hear a hum from the speaker, there is an issue with the amp. 

If you hear the amp itself hum, that is generally the amplifiers power supply is being saturated by DC and the core of the transformer is vibrating.  Filters will generally stop DC from saturation of the core.  They almost never stop hum out the speaker. 

If you have a shorting plug in the input and hum out the speaker,  that is usually a poor design of the equipment where a power trace is to close to a ground trace and the power couples to the ground and puts voltage onto the ground destabilizing the whole circuit. 

Um, OP here. Hasn't this discussion perhaps strayed a wee bit off-topic from "The Audio Impact of Solar Panels and Battery Backup?" 😏

Perhaps time to move this to its own thread, @The Computer Audiophile?

@KingRex ... many things in there.

1. I have 2 amps - they both had this issue and used all different lengths and type of power cords to try and rectify it. Now they have Front Row Audience high end power cables. I also used all kinds of lengths - in and out of power conditioners, into the wall, etc. As there are 2 units - and only on the tube side - I cannot believe both are defective. So it is something in the power.

2. When I plug them into the EcoFlow, the hum disappeared. 

I just did it again. Removed XLR. Plugged directly into the EcoFlow. No hum. When it starts charging I get a bit. 

I have not gone down the regenerator path ..... this was focused on Niagara 5000, Puritan, etc.

Just now, austinpop said:

Um, OP here. Hasn't this discussion perhaps strayed a wee bit off-topic from "The Audio Impact of Solar Panels and Battery Backup?" 😏

 

Perhaps time to move this to its own thread, @The Computer Audiophile?

Yes, I'll do some clean up and get us in a proper thread.

This thread has been peeled off @austinpop's original article - 

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

Um, OP here. Hasn't this discussion perhaps strayed a wee bit off-topic from "The Audio Impact of Solar Panels and Battery Backup?" 😏

 

Perhaps time to move this to its own thread, @The Computer Audiophile?

It seem right on topic.   A poster has said he likes a battery as it seems to have fixed an issue.  I am questioning his analysis process to determine if the battery system itself fixed the hum, or did something else.  I am then clearly asking for a through analysis of his EcoFlow battery power system to wall power with McIntosh amps.  You only use Headphones.  A far different system to power.  That is very much what people assessing what a battery want to know.   Can they power amplifiers with a Battery.   More people can afford to do this than put a Tesla Powerwall on their house.  Were talking $6K to $45K.  Still a battery. 

1 hour ago, UberK said:

@KingRex ... many things in there.

 

1. I have 2 amps - they both had this issue and used all different lengths and type of power cords to try and rectify it. Now they have Front Row Audience high end power cables. I also used all kinds of lengths - in and out of power conditioners, into the wall, etc. As there are 2 units - and only on the tube side - I cannot believe both are defective. So it is something in the power.

 

2. When I plug them into the EcoFlow, the hum disappeared. 

 

I just did it again. Removed XLR. Plugged directly into the EcoFlow. No hum. When it starts charging I get a bit. 

 

I have not gone down the regenerator path ..... this was focused on Niagara 5000, Puritan, etc.

 

What do you mean Romoved XLR.  XLR to me is a balanced interconnect.  Are you in Europe.  Is XLR what you call the male end of a power cord.

Power cords and their length have nothing to do with cleaning power or ground loops.  Not unless they are something like a Shunyata NR that has a filter built into it. 

Not to be rude or unkind or dismissive.  I am not questioning the hum issue you are experiencing at this time.  I am interested in what affect the EcoFlow has on the sound coming from your system.  When I recommend a filter to someone, I am looking for that filter to reduce noise on the utility line and allow dynamics to increase, bass to become tighter and more integrated with the mids and for the soundstage to expand in all directions.  I and I believe others want to know if a Ecoflow improves the sound from your system.  How would the Ecoflow compare to having an electrician come to your home and run new wire from your panel to your rack.  If it does not make your overall audio performance better and only gets rid of hum from an amp for some reason, then its not really an options for someone who is looking to improve the overall presentation of their stereo system.

When I lay out a design for someone such as yourself and advise 4 x #10 romex be run to the room bla bla bla.  The resultant end outcome is almost universally the noise floor is lower.  Bass is significantly tighter and faster.  Bass and midrange integrate better.  Sound stage is more solid.  Separation of instruments is more clear and defined.    I would like to know if you had time to really investigate what your system is voicing like, what your battery setup is doing.  My assumption is its more clean an quiet.  But I bet you lost some dynamics, the bass is a little soft and the soundstage is slightly compressed.  Its clean and quiet.  You might hear a little more detail.  But you gave up some.

Thanks in advance if you can make time to really listen and report back.

@KingRex not rude :). I am sure you are not dismissing the hum, as these things are quite common (and ridiculously hard to resolve).

1. I removed the XLR (the interconnect between the amp and the C12000) to remove the pre-amp from the equation. I am in North America ... I thought calling them XLR or analog interconnects was interchangeable. I just call them XLRs as it is shorter.

2. Per the above, I tried all kinds of different power cables .. stardard, iFi cables, then went to Audience Front Row power cables - 1m, 2m, 3m (have them for all systems so it was easy to try different lengths).

On the issue of re-running wiring ... it is a relatively new high end residence.  This is a good example (and story) of how that might not solve it (which influenced me): https://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2022/05/21/hifi-power-conditioning-vs-power-regeneration-ps-audio-pp20/

He did all that and still had a problem. Keep reading and he talks about how he switched from PS20 to Puritan (Which I have not tried) - I did Torus, Niagara, iFi, etc. which did nothing for me.

Is the sound out of the EcoFlow (which is what you are getting at) as good as it could be with a regenerator (Which is something others asked with regards to inverters) - do not know. Did not try the regenerator.

@austinpop

I know one other person that put a powerwall in and attached his audio to it.  They actually attached his whole house.  He has a Gryphon Diablo and Magico A3.  I don't know he heard anything.  In my mind, that is a good thing.  I need to circle back with him.  But his installation was one where they added a transfer switch so his grounding changed.  So did the entire power supply.  He has no way to go back and forth and listen.  Then he went and upgraded to S3.  So now his system is so radically different.   Its hard to tell the impact with amplifiers.  This person also does not futz over his system.  He turns it on, it plays music and he is happy.

I am personally more interested in stand alone battery systems.  That is what most audiophiles what to know about.  Can a battery better the wall.  The other group is people adding batteries to deal with power outage and they want to know will a battery and transfer switch damage the sound.  Or could it maybe be better.  The topic of a whole house powerwall system has not been pursued well.  For one its not easy to do.  If you reroute the service wires from the utiltiy stike out of the main panel and into a transfer switch, you have no way to do a comparison.  Whats done is done. you have to rely on memory.

5 hours ago, KingRex said:

@austinpop

I know one other person that put a powerwall in and attached his audio to it.  They actually attached his whole house.  He has a Gryphon Diablo and Magico A3.  I don't know he heard anything.  In my mind, that is a good thing.  I need to circle back with him.  But his installation was one where they added a transfer switch so his grounding changed.  So did the entire power supply.  He has no way to go back and forth and listen.  Then he went and upgraded to S3.  So now his system is so radically different.   Its hard to tell the impact with amplifiers.  This person also does not futz over his system.  He turns it on, it plays music and he is happy.

Agree with you Rex.

I think I was typical in my hopes and expectations: I just did not want SQ to degrade. So it was a pleasant surprise when I heard a (mild) uplift. 

5 hours ago, KingRex said:

I am personally more interested in stand alone battery systems.  That is what most audiophiles what to know about.  Can a battery better the wall.

Yup, this is the question.

I recently bought an Ecoflow myself. I'm using the "EcoFlow DELTA 2 Max Portable Power Station". I also ordered the 400watt Solar Panel as well but they were backordered and dragging their feet on delivery times so I got a refund on that piece for now. I'll try ordering again later

In any case, my purposes for the EcoFlow is to power a mobile Network/Internet setup for my truck. I'm using the Ecoflow to power the following:

1. Starlink "Roam" Service

2. Starlink Router and Flat panel Antenna

3. Asus Wireless Router/Firewall

4. Laptop

With the current load above I expect at least 12hrs of Internet access from anywhere in the US...at least that is my expectation but reality may be different ..will see I guess. So far so good though. Speed test out in BFE Colorado showed 100mb Down and 30Mb Up. Good enough for remote IT work at least.

Seems like a solid product thus far though

Last year, after a power outage in my neighborhood, I had to rely on my Bluetti AC200P to power my Sean Jacobs ARC6 DC4 which runs my modem, router, and work laptop. After the power came back on, I fortuitously forgot to switch things back to the mains+Puritan Audio PSM156. I was astounded by what I was hearing. 

Under a state of excitement, I decided to plug my Taiko Extreme, Lampi Pacific, Misho Myronov Wooden Preamp, and Line Magnetic 508ia amp into the Bluetti one at a time. I had to stop at the amplifier as the sound quality suffered at its addition. Till this day, everything else besides the amplifier (currently moved on to Wyetech Ruby 300B monoblocks) runs off the Bluetti, and I've never looked back. The Bluetti just doesn't have the output (2000W) to handle the amps as well. I am trying out other 

EcoFlow seems to me to be the best company for producing portable power supplies. Unlike Bluetti, EcoFlow usually has a longer battery cycle, the discharge rate is faster, and the discharge plug does not melt, like some Bluetti models with fast charging. Plus decent reserves for peak power. And the batteries themselves are standardized, and if you have the right hands, you can safely replace several failed batteries with 18650 batteries and the battery will last even longer than expected without completely replacing the entire unit

On 4/5/2024 at 5:37 PM, UberK said:

4. Power Conditioners as Snake oil. Here is what they claim:

What benefits can I expect from a Power Conditioner?

• Protect sensitive electronic equipment from damage or data loss
• Improve the quality of audio recording or playback by removing line noise that causes "hum"
• Extend the life of equipment containing electronic circuits

@UberK I have done a pretty good digging in when it comes to power conditioners which are just EMI filters. If your issue is only because of the noise/EMI on your power line then do consider OnFilter's EMI Filter. I have written a pretty long review of it which you can read it here. I have tried to cover the technical part as well in it. Hope you find it useful

Regards,
Audio_phool

Great thread, thank you @UberK @KingRex and everyone. I'm currently investigating a battery / inverter system which will run the stereo system completely off grid and then charge from grid+solar. I hear your comments about supply @KingRex and I've done a lot to optimise mine but your expertise here would be welcome if you ever venture across the Atlantic to UK! I feel that it is worth looking into an alternative solution. Victron and Studer Innotec are the two brands of inverters I'm considering with the latter having the better THD specs. BYD batteries look good but I'm still researching...

In case it's of interest, I came across this post recommending disconnecting the charger for critical listening: http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/Inverter_Power.html

I’d question whether a standalone battery AC system is better or not… to supply mains AC it needs an AC inverter - I cannot believe these are electrically quiet in any way so even if you can generate a nice AC waveform it’ll surely be polluted with the inverter/ electronics noise ? (unless there’s some heavy AC filtering/ conditioning going on as well - so no different to putting the filter/ conditioner on the wall mains ?)

It may well be a battery “source” but unless you’re powering DC equipment directly then I cannot see much benefit of regenerated AC over the wall mains with filters etc….

6 hours ago, krass said:

I’d question whether a standalone battery AC system is better or not… to supply mains AC it needs an AC inverter - I cannot believe these are electrically quiet in any way so even if you can generate a nice AC waveform it’ll surely be polluted with the inverter/ electronics noise ? (unless there’s some heavy AC filtering/ conditioning going on as well - so no different to putting the filter/ conditioner on the wall mains ?)

 

It may well be a battery “source” but unless you’re powering DC equipment directly then I cannot see much benefit of regenerated AC over the wall mains with filters etc….

There are reviews online (when I can find the right one again, I'll link it) that include measurements showing the EcoFlow inverter is high quality and produces negligible noise.

44 minutes ago, dc-audiogeek said:

There are reviews online (when I can find the right one again, I'll link it) that include measurements showing the EcoFlow inverter is high quality and produces negligible noise.

I don’t doubt it has “good measurements”.. 

I’m just uncertain whether it technically brings much (more) than an approach using AC power filters; in one case the inverter is many miles away but you have other users sharing the power source, in this case the inverter & its electronics are very close by but you have the advantage to isolate yourself from other users.

Ulitimately if it works for you then it’s a good choice !

11 hours ago, krass said:

I’d question whether a standalone battery AC system is better or not… to supply mains AC it needs an AC inverter - I cannot believe these are electrically quiet in any way so even if you can generate a nice AC waveform it’ll surely be polluted with the inverter/ electronics noise ? (unless there’s some heavy AC filtering/ conditioning going on as well - so no different to putting the filter/ conditioner on the wall mains ?)

 

It may well be a battery “source” but unless you’re powering DC equipment directly then I cannot see much benefit of regenerated AC over the wall mains with filters etc….

Isn’t that the point of things like the PS Audio equipment? It regenerates.

EcoFlow worked for me. We are about to move, and the first thing going in is a bank of 3 EcoFlow stacks so that I can run the house on batteries for a couple weeks - to avoid all the brown outs and noise in the system. Also have solar, so will optimize for selling back into the grid, converting the pool to electric heat, etc.

Electricians will also be testing the house for grounding as their first task on the list.

In addition, I like running the entire house on batteries. So I can get rid of UPSs - which are bulky and annoying.

Suspenders and a belt. This frigging McIntosh issue drove me flat out insane - Niagara, and others did nothing (I bought and either - ate - or returned) a myriad of systems trying to get rid of the hum. Plus as I detailed a LOT of grounding work. 

And the new Ecoflows are the low temp batteries - and incredible technology. Which in the end .. is what I enjoy playing around with.