5.1+ Processors with Best DACs/Preamps?

11 hours ago, nxrm said:

Assuming you're familiar with the highly popular JRiver player https://jriver.com/

and as I mentioned here numerous times, I will often use this system to play BD movie discs on my pc via JRiver. The graphics card's HDMI will send the video to my TV and the movie's DTS-MA,  decoded to PCM, via USB to the MOTU.

I do that all the time.  From JRiver, USB to multichannel DAC (not the MOTU) and HDMI to display.

On 3/12/2023 at 12:48 PM, nxrm said:

MOTU has USB Audio input? Along with using the system for music, I'd be playing BD movie discs on my pc via JRiver, which would feed video via HDMI to my TV and output decoded DTS MA audio via USB to the MOTU. 

 

No video/audio syncing issues?

 

So your MOTU's balanced outputs exceed 10 volts/channel?

 

And MOTU attenuators let you set all levels?

 

Handheld volume/mute remote or only  via mouse? 

This is not a MOTU but an additional option that has many I/O options that is another solid choice assuming you don't care about being 24/192 limited and that you don't have an immediate need for Ethernet based Input/Output functionality.

https://www.rme-audio.de/fireface-ufx-ii.html

I haven't looked into it too deeply in the last two years but I have seen USB Input boxes that can convert that signal into something else (Pick your favorite alternative Digital Output) for a reasonable price. There are of course "high-end" options also but...

So as an example, you may not necessarily need a DAC/Pre..etc with a USB Input (for the audio portion from your TV) if you could use a box to convert that USB to some other format more commonly seen as an Input.

19 hours ago, cjf said:

This is not a MOTU but an additional option that has many I/O options that is another solid choice assuming you don't care about being 24/192 limited and that you don't have an immediate need for Ethernet based Input/Output functionality.

 

https://www.rme-audio.de/fireface-ufx-ii.html

 

I haven't looked into it too deeply in the last two years but I have seen USB Input boxes that can convert that signal into something else (Pick your favorite alternative Digital Output) for a reasonable price. There are of course "high-end" options also but...

 

So as an example, you may not necessarily need a DAC/Pre..etc with a USB Input (for the audio portion from your TV) if you could use a box to convert that USB to some other format more commonly seen as an Input.

I've no DSDs in my music collection so 24/96 is fine. And though I would have preferred all XLR connectors, a quick check of these specs looks like all 8 balanced outputs might have sufficient output voltage for my needs. But it looks like it has no wireless volume/mute remote.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1315319-REG/rme_arc_usb_advanced_remote.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjwtsCgBhDEARIsAE7RYh0EQDSC22is5ANDF3geywhFEnCCRDodoilsXvyMoppMMO4wU4XBEJMaAqkPEALw_wcB

But I emailed RME questions about this and other issues. Maybe it's an option. It's more than double the price of the MOTU 8A. Maybe Audio Science or someone else did a comparative review?

3 hours ago, nxrm said:

 

I've no DSDs in my music collection so 24/96 is fine. And though I would have preferred all XLR connectors, a quick check of these specs looks like all 8 balanced outputs might have sufficient output voltage for my needs. But it looks like it has no wireless volume/mute remote.

 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1315319-REG/rme_arc_usb_advanced_remote.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjwtsCgBhDEARIsAE7RYh0EQDSC22is5ANDF3geywhFEnCCRDodoilsXvyMoppMMO4wU4XBEJMaAqkPEALw_wcB

 

But I emailed RME questions about this and other issues. Maybe it's an option. It's more than double the price of the MOTU 8A. Maybe Audio Science or someone else did a comparative review?

The Motu has far less Input options than the RME does but I have no complaints with Motu in general assuming it has everything you need.

This box is not wireless but if you must have a physical remote you can take a look at this one, also from RME which is said to be able to connect directly to the previous unit I linked to: https://www.rme-audio.de/arc-usb.html . I've never used it but figured I would add it here in case there was interest.

That RME is listed as having a Max of 19dBu for Output voltage which is almost 7volts.

In my own setup I have the Merging HAPI set to 18dBu (Just over 6volts) which is good enough for my purposes. If need be, I can bump that up to 24dBu but in my current setup that's not required.

Unless your planning on making 25-30db worth of corrections I imagine you shouldn't need more than 18dBu and if you do then your correction filters are probably too aggressive anyway.

I think I remember seeing mention of using JRiver for this setup somewhere in the thread but I could be smoking crack and thinking of something else? If you were planning on using JRiver to send all Audio thru it from all devices then you can probably still use your mobile phone and a JRiver App to control Vol/Mute..etc. 

If you do the above, just keep the DAC/Pre unit at Full 100% volume so your not running the signal thru two Vol control mechanisms. You just need to be mindful when doing this because mistakes can happen if you mix the need to use the physical Vol knob and a Digital one for various use case scenarios. Its less of a concern/problem when always using a one or the other approach. 

3 hours ago, cjf said:

The Motu has far less Input options than the RME does but I have no complaints with Motu in general assuming it has everything you need.

 

This box is not wireless but if you must have a physical remote you can take a look at this one, also from RME which is said to be able to connect directly to the previous unit I linked to: https://www.rme-audio.de/arc-usb.html . I've never used it but figured I would add it here in case there was interest.

 

That RME is listed as having a Max of 19dBu for Output voltage which is almost 7volts.

 

In my own setup I have the Merging HAPI set to 18dBu (Just over 6volts) which is good enough for my purposes. If need be, I can bump that up to 24dBu but in my current setup that's not required.

 

Unless your planning on making 25-30db worth of corrections I imagine you shouldn't need more than 18dBu and if you do then your correction filters are probably too aggressive anyway.

 

.......If you were planning on using JRiver to send all Audio thru it from all devices then you can probably still use your mobile phone and a JRiver App to control Vol/Mute..etc. 

 

If you do the above, just keep the DAC/Pre unit at Full 100% volume so your not running the signal thru two Vol control mechanisms. You just need to be mindful when doing this because mistakes can happen if you mix the need to use the physical Vol knob and a Digital one for various use case scenarios. Its less of a concern/problem when always using a one or the other approach. 

Yes, JRiver (and sometimes PowerDVD and VLC) will be my main player.

How do you remote control the volume of your HAPI system? With that wired (?) interface sitting on that table near a chair in one of your system photos?

17 hours ago, nxrm said:

Yes, JRiver (and sometimes PowerDVD and VLC) will be my main player.

 

How do you remote control the volume of your HAPI system? With that wired (?) interface sitting on that table near a chair in one of your system photos?

 

 

Hello,

I use Roon to handle my volume control. I have the HAPI Vol knob set to 100% and then within Roon I am using the Digital Vol control feature. There are Min/Max limits configured within the Vol configuration menu. You just have to remember to look at the Vol setting within the App before playing music because it will remember whatever the last Vol level was that you were using. So if you were trying to blow your hair back the night before it will do the same the next time you hit Play. So I always look at the level before hitting Play next time.

From my mobile phone I have the Roon App installed and can control the system volume from there. The Vol for all channels are adjusted at the same time via the Roon App.

Just curious, if you didn't have the roon what might you use for remote volume/mute control?

On 3/8/2023 at 10:44 AM, Synfreak said:

You could order the Octo Research DAC8 Pro with higher Outputlevel, if needed:

 

 

I'm not sure if you have read my (above quoted) post, so ..., wouldn't the Octo not exactly suit your needs?

8 hours ago, Synfreak said:

 

I'm not sure if you have read my (above quoted) post, so ..., wouldn't the Octo not exactly suit your needs?

The Okto DAC 8 Pro has been way up on my short list, though I was dismayed and actually shocked by the absence of actual listening tests in this review.  https://www.stereophile.com/content/okto-research-dac8-pro-da-processor

Instead, I was at least lucky enough to find it favorably compared here with this far more expensive DAC.  

https://www.stereophile.com/content/exasound-s88-multichannel-da-processor-page-2

As much as I'm driven to jump on the DAC 8 Pro I was 1.) still hunting for any 8 channel DACs whose design might likely deliver even better sound quality and 2.) a stock DAC that with > 8 volts output/channel. Yes, the the DAC 8 Pro can be ordered with the higher output option but unless I'm missing something there were no output voltage vs. distortion tests run here; certainly none with the optional higher output. https://www.stereophile.com/content/okto-research-dac8-pro-da-processor-measurements

So far this might be the best all-rounder option https://motu.com/products/avb/8a

This one might/might not offer better sound quality though bloated with even more connectivity I'll never use.

https://www.rme-audio.de/fireface-ufx-ii.html Both 7.7v max and 6.9 v max, respectively  https://www.sowter.co.uk/decibels.php

MOTU Support did send me distortion numbers at max output, which were extremely low. Presumably, Okto Support would provide the same distortion vs. balanced output voltage measurements up to 12 volts, like JA in Fig. 3 of this Topping preamp.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/topping-pre90-line-preamplifier-measurements

But for me at least, the big question is that unlike the Pre90 preamp and the MOTU and RME interfaces, why didn't Okto simply build the DAC 8 Pro to normally output up to 12 volts? Instead, having it only available as an optional leaves one wondering if distortion might rapidly increase beyond the stock output level.

I will definitely want to post this question at these threads

https://www.audio “science” review/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-okto-dac8-8ch-dac-amp.7064/page-114   AND also at the same thread at diyaudio.com

3 hours ago, nxrm said:

1.) still hunting for any 8 channel DACs whose design might likely deliver even better sound quality

Unlikely.

3 hours ago, nxrm said:

why didn't Okto simply build the DAC 8 Pro to normally output up to 12 volts?

Because that would make the output excessively high for the majority of users with high-sensitivity consumer power amps.

4 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Unlikely.

 

Because that would make the output excessively high for the majority of users with high-sensitivity consumer power amps.

Then why not price the DAC 8 pro a bit higher to design a higher res volume/mute remote to scale the output more precisely and thus more safely?  I'd have spent hundreds more for that, and which would have likely have also included other useful features.

25 minutes ago, nxrm said:

 

Then why not price the DAC 8 pro a bit higher to design a higher res volume/mute remote to scale the output more precisely and thus more safely?  I'd have spent hundreds more for that, and which would have likely have also included other useful features.

Probably because Okto sees users of consumer amps as their target market and that building the options into the device would raise the price significantly for only a marginal increase in market.

1 hour ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Probably because Okto sees users of consumer amps as their target market and that building the options into the device would raise the price significantly for only a marginal increase in market.

Probably a silly idea but I wonder if  https://www.marchandelec.com/attenuator-volume-control.html or someone who one of these editors might recommend https://positive-feedback.com/ could (affordably) mod the Okto DAC's outputs and/or build high res volume/mute remote for it.

I also thought of http://www.colemanaudio.com/

but he might only work on strictly analog devices.

21 minutes ago, nxrm said:

Probably a silly idea but I wonder if  https://www.marchandelec.com/attenuator-volume-control.html or someone who one of these editors might recommend https://positive-feedback.com/ could (affordably) mod the Okto DAC's outputs and/or build high res volume/mute remote for it.

It can be done but, yes, it is silly to expect it except as a custom job at considerable cost.

On 3/16/2023 at 1:48 AM, nxrm said:

Just curious, if you didn't have the roon what might you use for remote volume/mute control?

The only other option I would consider for a setup like I am running (Multiple Channels, Subs, Room Correction..etc) if I didn't use Roon would be JRiver. 

I spent quite a bit of time researching the available Volume Control options/choices before I went down the multiple channel route and in the end, the only option that made sense was the Dig Vol Control option. I was not interested in dealing with multiple physical devices each with their own Vol knob and the all the extra boxes, cabling..etc that go along with it. Then there is the individual component inconsistency between each of those boxes own Vol Control unless some serious efforts were made to have each box produced measure exactly the same (Unlikely no matter what your budget is).

Having uniform, accurate and transparent Vol Control of each channel was important to me and I just couldn't see that being possible, at this point in time, using a different approach.

3 hours ago, cjf said:

The only other option I would consider for a setup like I am running (Multiple Channels, Subs, Room Correction..etc) if I didn't use Roon would be JRiver........... 

 

Having uniform, accurate and transparent Vol Control of each channel was important to me and I just couldn't see that being possible, at this point in time, using a different approach.

Turns out JRiver (though I hope sometimes VLC and PowerDVD players for their nifty DVD/BD slow motion and zoom control, respectively) will be my BD movie disc player of choice for my MCH system.

But if you were to use JRiver what hand held remote would you (be able to) use with it?

And would JRiver and that remote enable you to control the individual channel levels, not just master volume level?

I see that you didn't take my suggestion for the Monoprice HTP-1 seriously on AA.  You should.  I feed multichannel from Roon via HDMI to the HTP-1 decimated to 24/48, as the internal processing for Dirac runs at that rate.  You are not going to find a better, more economical all-around solution for a 5.3 system than the HTP-1 and it both sounds and measures great. I could live with it as my only DAC/Pre if I needed to downsize; it really is that good.  The Dirac Live Bass Control for 3-4 subs alone is worth the investment for a system such as you are suggesting.  Maybe you just like proposing a bunch of options and watching threads for fun.  When you get serious about actually building a system, look to the HTP-1.  Also, if you need 10v of output to offset filter losses, then you are measuring or configuring your filters wrong. That will only be a case when you have grossly mismatched speaker outputs or ridiculously inefficient speakers.  I suspect that the HTP-1 will be back in stock in the next couple weeks.  There are units waiting for a final part for assembly and for the developers to finish the user interface for configuring DTS: X pro.  But they are coming back in stock soon, we have been assured.

One final thought for you to chew on: your intention is to build a 5.3 or 5.4 system--for now.  Once you have a well set-up multichannel system, you are going to eventually get curious about the newly available Atmos and Spatial Audio content.  If you spend eveything on a system limited to 5.3, you will not get a chance to do that without starting over. And believe me when I tell you , you will want to experience Atmos.  Think ahead a bit before you spend on an 8-channel-limited system.

20 hours ago, nxrm said:

Turns out JRiver (though I hope sometimes VLC and PowerDVD players for their nifty DVD/BD slow motion and zoom control, respectively) will be my BD movie disc player of choice for my MCH system.

 

But if you were to use JRiver what hand held remote would you (be able to) use with it?

 

And would JRiver and that remote enable you to control the individual channel levels, not just master volume level?

Ideally, whatever software you choose to create your Room Correction filters (I use Audiolense) would handle the Vol level changes needed for each channel which would then be "Baked Into" the correction files which are then fed to JRiver/Roon and applied to the music.

At this point, only the master volume level adjustment is needed (assuming you Vol match the Subs to the other channels first using the physical dials on the Sub to get you as close as possible to whatever your target Output level is (say 75-80db as an example). If you don't do this then you will likely end up with aggressive Correction files being needed which then in turn eats up your Vol Output headroom which then circles back to now needing more than your average Output voltage from the DAC so it can continue to drive the Amps with enough juice to output a good SPL level in the room (preferably before running out of Vol adjustment on either the DAC or within the Dig Vol knob in the software).

As an example of the above explanation to tie in the point, when I want to Jam out a bit, I will run the Roon Dig Vol knob up to about -10dbfs. If I want to get silly, I will push it to -5dbfs (this produces about 105-107db in room output level). So basically, I'm pretty much of out of Vol adjustment (while using the 18dBu Output level setting in the DAC). I'm not brave enough to run the Roon Vol knob up to 0dbfs while also at the same time having the DAC Vol control maxed out as well.

Without knowing the particular DAC you will use its hard to say what kind of physical Vol knob options would be available, if any. For JRiver, I believe they used to have an App called JRemote or something of that nature which is installed on your mobile phone to control the Master Vol level.

miniDSP sent me an email today announcing their newest baby: a replacement for the nanoAVR (which I own and used until it became EOL).  

Here is a one-box solution for a 5.3 system with optional 8-channel Dirac.  It only has RCA outputs, but it is going to be the most economical way to do what you want and will probably sound a lot better than you expect it to.  miniDSP has really good engineers.

https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/flex-ht

On 3/12/2023 at 9:49 PM, bobfa said:

no idea

I reviewed your system; highly impressive, FWIW from this newbie. But when you had to initially run mic measurements to correct your room what A/D converter did you use to record the measurements? The Motu 24Ao is only a MCH DAC, on your gear list doesn't show its companion 24Ai ADC.

You do not need an ADC.  The 24Ao is connected via USB to the Windows PC laptop and my Mic.  Running Audiolens XO to do the measurements.

Here is the Article I wrote about the DSP correction

1 hour ago, bobfa said:

You do not need an ADC.  The 24Ao is connected via USB to the Windows PC laptop and my Mic.  Running Audiolens XO to do the measurements.

 

Here is the Article I wrote about the DSP correction

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for this. Yes, beginning with the Let's Get Started section I see no indication that an ADC is required to for making mic measurements. Is that because, unlike if using multiple stereo DACs, with the Motu there's only one clock in the whole system?  

The problem is that I have two clocks, one in the Mic I am using and one in the DAC.  I did not want to invest in another Mic for now.  I do not feel that the Mic hampered us. 

Prior to any room correction, I wonder which would tend to sound better: Merging Hapi or Anthem AVM90 or LYNGDORF MP-40 2.1