Wavelength Audio USB Spacelator

On 7/11/2023 at 2:21 PM, ittaly said:

What I find unusual is that in this AS thread, there are no formal measurements (yet) or disassembly/inside photos.

I have a response for this, based on my own observations and experience.  They're general observations, not directed at any one individual.

Measurements require test gear.  Which I happen to own.  But, I am generally loath to measure any one piece of gear for posting on the internet.

Here's why.

In order for measurements to be useful, there has to be some sort of standard.  OK, just what is that?  An Audio Precision test system?  (No - I don't own one of those.)  In this case, just what DAC should be used?

The AP system is very expensive and part of the reason for that is the great lengths the company goes to in order to minimize the interaction of the test system with the device under test.  Among others things, that means that the AP has superior common mode signal rejection at its analog inputs and outputs.  The power system is optimized to minimize the possibility of currents conducted through the power mains.  And so on.  There's a reason that they have the reputation they have.

So, in an environment like that a USB isolator may have no effect.  A USB isolator is supposed to be a remedy for the system deficiencies AP charges a lot for to minimize.

But, just who has a home audio system that has all the performance features of an AP test system?  I'd like to know of even one system like that.

And, what DAC should be used for this test?  Isn't it almost certain that different DACs will behave differently within a system?  Even the online performance tests of DACs within the high isolation of an AP test system show considerable differences between DAC samples.

So, what is the standard for measurement for USB isolators?  Personally, I don't want to get in the middle of unwinnable arguments like this.  More than enough people are eager to insult anybody who even suggests that a product like a USB isolator might have some audible benefit.  So, I'll steer clear.  I did offer my own view that, for me, USB isolators are a benefit in sound quality.  Earlier, I offered some examples (measurements) of why that seems to be true.  If people find those observations worthy of a further look for themselves, great.  If not, I'm OK with that as well.  In retrospect, I shouldn't have even offered those observations.

As for showing photos of the inside or even schematics, well, forget that one, too.

I recently retired from a career of designing electronic equipment and systems for the telecommunications industry.  Everything we built, no matter how simple, took resources of some kind.  In many cases, lots of resources.  The pricing of equipment is not just based on the simple bill of materials for the product.  There's development costs, warranty costs, test costs, certification costs, overhead, wages for the workers, and even some profit for the corporation.  And more.  Yeah, all of those can vary a lot based on the industry and a zillion other factors.  Even plain old greed.  I was, ahh, encouraged along the way to patent whatever could be patented.  I was also, ahh, discouraged from discussing anything with anybody - often even within the company itself - unless various non-disclosure agreements were in place.  That was all because of the value the company put on my designs.  (Other people's, too, of course.). Believe me, they didn't value me as much as they valued the designs.

Personally, I'm not interested in showing off what's inside somebody else's design.  They invested in it and did the work.  I know that I never was happy when I found out that a competitor had copied one of my designs and tried to sell it.  In my case, that didn't affect my pocketbook at all.  For the audio guys, it well might.  In the case of audio gear, most of the companies are small.  Maybe even just one or two employees.  Small companies selling small volumes of products have it hard enough without somebody "borrowing" the design and selling a competing product that they didn't have to invest time, money, or much in the way of resources of their own.

In fact, I don't even post my own DIY audio design work on the internet.  I've seen other guys who have done that, only to find that the work gets copied and sold.  OK, that stings, even if you aren't attempting to make money at all from your audio projects.  It stings because you get no credit.  You feel ripped off.

But, know what's even worse?  When somebody credits you for a design, but then puts their own spin on it.  Maybe it works better, maybe not.  Maybe it's not to somebody's expectations, whatever those might be.  Guess who gets the hate email or bad comments on the internet?  The original designer!  That's true even if the original designer never even saw that his or her work had been copied.  How's s/he supposed to help with that?  He or she takes the abuse without any possibility of reward or even salvation.  That's crazy.  Why volunteer for that?  The copier always seems fine taking your work and profiting from it, but not much else.

My last observation is that an awful lot of the people who ask for or demand measurements or an inside view of a product never offer to publish their own measurements or purchase a product to show off the inside, if they think that's an ok thing to do.  Is that fair?

Everybody can make their own rules for what they choose to do.  The above are mine.

One other thing.  I don't go through all the threads here on AS.  Indeed, I only look at small number of posts.  I don't recall many photos of circuits or much in the way of measurements.  Am I missing something?

No kidding!  Isn't that exactly my point?  Why post measurements that will vary from system to system, suggesting to people that some product will improve or not improve their listening experience?  Is that actually useful?

Measurements are certainly a very valuable tool.  They'll tell you if a component works properly.  They help you refine a design by allowing you to change operating conditions and circuit details to get a result you might like.  But, they only give you an idea of how a device performs under the test conditions, which as you point out is quite variable and different from system to system.  It all only works within the context of the test conditions.

While those test results would be quite useful for me, in my system, that's quite different from posting the results taken from a very limited universe of audio systems and extrapolating some conclusion based on limited data points.  And, that is what is usually done on the internet, both in articles and in forums.  Repeated often enough, the conclusion becomes dogma, which is almost impossible to discuss rationally.  

I can point to more than one test about USB isolators published on the internet that have reached different conclusions from those you described.  So, who is right?  See my point?  Who wants to get in the middle of that?  I don't.  (Note that I am in general agreement with you about the value of a USB isolator...)

Anyway, that's why I don't normally post test measurements.  

In the past, if somebody asked whether another reader has tried a component, and I have tried it and found it useful, I occasionally posted my impression in an attempt to be helpful.  I've actually reconsidered that approach and am not going to even do that any longer.  It's actually not helpful to anybody and just provokes arguments, which also aren't helpful.

Besides, I was just addressing the comment somebody posed that he found it unusual that readers of this site hadn't posted test results in this AS thread and along with a tear down with photographs.  I gave my reasons why I wouldn't do either.  Nothing more.

BTW, when I wrote "So, in an environment like that a USB isolator may have no effect"  I really should have said "So, in an environment like that a USB isolator may have little or no effect."

34 minutes ago, CG said:

BTW, when I wrote "So, in an environment like that a USB isolator may have no effect"  I really should have said "So, in an environment like that a USB isolator may have little or no effect."

Pick a system where it has biggest effect, and then cycle through number of different isolators and rank them. That is currently the most common way.

Or in other way, make the system intentionally as bad as you can and see which isolator fares the best.

The E1DA Cosmos was largely created to emulate the AP instruments, at a $ that many DIYers can afford.

https://e1dashz.wixsite.com/index/cosmos-adc

Inside photos -- and detailed topology and parts used specs --  are not at all uncommon.

E..g., Schiit provides very comprehensive info about their products on their site. And even ifi allows reviewers to publish detailed inside shots.

Some manuf are concerned that if too much info about their products are made avail to the public, competitors are simply going to copy their design and toss it off as their own.

I don't know how often that happens with absolute consciousness or deliberation or pre-meditation. After all, many chip datasheets have suggested circuits in the PDF. TI, AD, Cirrus, et al have the talent and labs and resources to do most of the hard work. Just add water ... shake-n-bake ... box cake and brownie mixes are quite tasty ... but not "from scratch".

And then, there is cost of production, distribution, legal costs, patent atty fees, etc. So even with free topology, you still don't have mass prod item (if that's your ultimate goal).

I'm not sure how much REAL innovation companies Wavelength ultimately employ -- it's just Gordon Rankin runnin' the show, right? Taking the top off and snapping a few shots may reveal a $7.00 ADUM usb chip with JUST a clean power supply and boutique parts inside a sturdy box. And, of course, the Wavelength brand. But, unlike a Rolex or Omega, a usb isolater is hardly ... ahem ... TIMELESS.

On Ali, one can get fairly close with a $70 device:

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805462191631.html

12 hours ago, WEN HONG said:

The Usb Spacelator arrived after an 18-day shipping process. Just connected a Macmini M2 to the Qb9-20 and the sound impact is positive. The included linear power supply is a Chinese brand and I'm in Beijing.

 

 

 

 

I'm glad that it's working out for you!  Don't you love when that happens?

Side note...

I hadn't even thought about this thread since last summer, until I got a notification of Wen Hong's results in via email.

But, reading through it all again, something stuck out.  A number of comments were basically made along the lines of how I should measure this, and reveal that.  But, I noticed that not one other person stood up and bought a device to measure and/or tear down.  I'm not sure that many people here even have bought any form of test gear.  (I know Miska has...)  Not that anybody should be required to do either of those, at least according to me, but why are they making demands requests of others to do that for them?  So they can pick on some manufacturer?  So, they can beat up on me?  I don't get it.

On 7/15/2023 at 8:00 PM, CG said:

BTW, when I wrote "So, in an environment like that a USB isolator may have no effect"  I really should have said "So, in an environment like that a USB isolator may have little or no effect."

you keep calling it an isolator and it's not just an isolator it's a reclocker...As far as measurements go, until you have equipment that can measure how I hear and absorb, and perceive sound measurements are nothing more than a reference point. The greatest audio equipment uses the ear as a the finishing touch...There is no better measuring equipment than that. Period

14 hours ago, skids929 said:

 

 

you keep calling it an isolator and it's not just an isolator it's a reclocker...As far as measurements go, until you have equipment that can measure how I hear and absorb, and perceive sound measurements are nothing more than a reference point. The greatest audio equipment uses the ear as a the finishing touch...There is no better measuring equipment than that. Period

I'm not sure where you get your information, but it is an isolator.  The upstream and downstream sides are galvanically and otherwise isolated with internal transformers in the signal paths.  This technique has been used in medical equipment for quite some time now.  Yes, there is often reclocking performed on the signals.  But, a device can do both, can't it?

As for the value of an isolator, it's to minimize the effects of common mode currents, primarily in the loop between the digital source and the DAC.  These currents very often cause a layer of unwanted signals and noise at the DAC output that aren't part of the original music/sound.  (Contrast that to other distortions, like harmonic distortion.)  It's like not getting to appreciate the nice rug on your floor because there's a layer of trash covering it.

That's where measurements come in.  How can you separate one imperfection from another otherwise?  Audio measurements are certainly not complete in any way.  So, please point me to where I ever even suggested that the human aural system is not the final and most important determinant in how an audio system sounds and is enjoyed.  I will gladly publish an apology and correction when you do.

1 minute ago, CG said:

 

I'm not sure where you get your information, but it is an isolator.  The upstream and downstream sides are galvanically and otherwise isolated with internal transformers in the signal paths.  This technique has been used in medical equipment for quite some time now.  Yes, there is often reclocking performed on the signals.  But, a device can do both, can't it?

 

As for the value of an isolator, it's to minimize the effects of common mode currents, primarily in the loop between the digital source and the DAC.  These currents very often cause a layer of unwanted signals and noise at the DAC output that aren't part of the original music/sound.  (Contrast that to other distortions, like harmonic distortion.)  It's like not getting to appreciate the nice rug on your floor because there's a layer of trash covering it.

 

That's where measurements come in.  How can you separate one imperfection from another otherwise?  Audio measurements are certainly not complete in any way.  So, please point me to where I ever even suggested that the human aural system is not the final and most important determinant in how an audio system sounds and is enjoyed.  I will gladly publish an apology and correction when you do.

Rationalize much? 

17 minutes ago, skids929 said:

 

 

Rationalize much? 

Huh?

I note that you've used this response in other threads in the past.

Perhaps it would be helpful if you explained why you think that an Intona device, a Topping HS02, the now discontinued UpTone IsoRegen, or this Wavelength USB Spacelator are not isolators.  And, why you think that doesn't matter, in your opinion.

As for the rest, maybe you just are looking for an argument of some kind.  Dunno.  If so, please say so and I'll just declare you the victor and I'll move on.

Just now, CG said:

 

Huh?

 

I note that you've used this response in other threads in the past.

 

Perhaps it would be helpful if you explained why you think that an Intona device, a Topping HS02, the now discontinued UpTone IsoRegen, or this Wavelength USB Spacelator are not isolators.  And, why you think that doesn't matter in your opinion.

 

As for the rest, maybe you just are looking for an argument of some kind.  Dunno.  If so, please say so and I'll just declare you the victor and I'll move on.

I note you've use this rationale in other threads..Congrats. I NEVER said it wasn't an isolator. re-read it maybe it will sink in. sheesh

4 minutes ago, skids929 said:

 

I note you've use this rationale in other threads..Congrats. I NEVER said it wasn't an isolator. re-read it maybe it will sink in. sheesh

Umm... How about from here:

"you keep calling it an isolator and it's not just an isolator it's a reclocker..."

OK, you say it's both.  My mistake.

But, then, what is your point?  There are other USB isolation devices out there that don't reclock.  They reduce that trash level covering the floor.

Just now, CG said:

 

Umm... How about from here:

 

"you keep calling it an isolator and it's not just an isolator it's a reclocker..."

correct...What is confusing about that? It's 100% accurate, it's not JUST an isolator. 

So, again, what is the point you're trying to make?  That isolation doesn't matter?

E1DA uses this device, I believe, in their Cosmos ADCiso.  It kills the common mode noise that you can easily measure.  No reclocking whatsoever.

ISOUSB211 Data Sheet

2 minutes ago, CG said:

So, again, what is the point you're trying to make?  That isolation doesn't matter?

 

E1DA uses this device, I believe, in their Cosmos ADCiso.  It kills the common mode noise that you can easily measure.  No reclocking whatsoever.

 

ISOUSB211 Data Sheet

 

 

My point is that you are mischaracterizing what the device is. Whether you believe in it is irrelevant. Take that argument to the measurement crowd over on ASR..I bet you have a log in. 

Sheesh all this back and forth for you to understand one simple point. I am out..Best of luck to you in your Mom's basement. 

On 2/8/2024 at 6:54 AM, WEN HONG said:

The Usb Spacelator arrived after an 18-day shipping process. Just connected a Macmini M2 to the Qb9-20 and the sound impact is positive. The included linear power supply is a Chinese brand and I'm in Beijing.

 

 

 

 

Think they could have managed to put more obnoxious blue LEDs on it? Good gravy 🙄

The blue light is faint and basically invisible from the front even at night.

On 2/9/2024 at 12:33 AM, CG said:

 

I'm glad that it's working out for you!  Don't you love when that happens?

 

Side note...

 

I hadn't even thought about this thread since last summer, until I got a notification of Wen Hong's results in via email.

 

But, reading through it all again, something stuck out.  A number of comments were basically made along the lines of how I should measure this, and reveal that.  But, I noticed that not one other person stood up and bought a device to measure and/or tear down.  I'm not sure that many people here even have bought any form of test gear.  (I know Miska has...)  Not that anybody should be required to do either of those, at least according to me, but why are they making demands requests of others to do that for them?  So they can pick on some manufacturer?  So, they can beat up on me?  I don't get it.

Why is this about picking on some manufacturer and not about finding out if a product delivers?

1 hour ago, semente said:

Why is this about picking on some manufacturer and not about finding out if a product delivers?

I'm not sure how you got that interpretation.

My point is: I'm not sure why people feel like they should be able to demand that other posters on this thread perform measurements and do analyses on products.   If you're so interested in this, buy or borrow the product and make your own measurements.  If someone does make measurements and performs analyses and are willing to share with everyone, fine.  But, don't demand that others do it for you.

As for picking on a manufacturer or me, I was just speculating - hence the question marks - as to why people would make such demands.  Of course, I could be wrong entirely and am quite open to being corrected.

This is why I never visit this forum.  I only came now to respond to an email notification of your post.