R-2R Audio Note DAC 4.1 DIY and mods

Hey Astrostar, nice thread!

I am getting a DAC 4.1 built now. I am thinking of going with Jupiter Copper Foils that are often regarding as very close to Duelands but still half the price.

Right now, the stock caps would the Audio Note Copper Films 0.1ufs. Before I buy the Jupiters, I wanted to check to see that is still the best value for the cap (0.1uf)?

I have V-Caps TFTF's in my amp and love them (very transparent amp), but I think it will too much of a good thing to have them in DAC has well. In fact, I do wonder If I should stay with the AN Copper, as I don't mind a bit of rolled off highs. But the lack of transparency and openness worries me. 

Appreciate any advice you have. I don't plan to do any other mods as its already is close to equalling what my amp is worth. 

54 minutes ago, Orangecrush said:

Hey Astrostar, nice thread!

 

I am getting a DAC 4.1 built now. I am thinking of going with Jupiter Copper Foils that are often regarding as very close to Duelands but still half the price.

 

Right now, the stock caps would the Audio Note Copper Films 0.1ufs. Before I buy the Jupiters, I wanted to check to see that is still the best value for the cap (0.1uf)?

 

I have V-Caps TFTF's in my amp and love them (very transparent amp), but I think it will too much of a good thing to have them in DAC has well. In fact, I do wonder If I should stay with the AN Copper, as I don't mind a bit of rolled off highs. But the lack of transparency and openness worries me. 

 

Appreciate any advice you have. I don't plan to do any other mods as its already is close to equalling what my amp is worth. 

A good friend of mine tried Audyn Copper Max instead of his Duelund cast capacitors. And even though he was determined to put back his Duelund capacitors, he ended up keeping the Audyns there. 
Bear in mind that the Audio Note Copper capacitors are very good capacitors already, you might want to focus on something else, like the power supply. Also try and follow what you hear rather than what you read (yes, in this regard you should include my advice), x material could yield x result which might be the opposite of what your 'chain' needs. 

Also, if you have pictures of the 'guts', there might be better places to stick a few bucks. 

Great advice! 

By the time I could take a pic, it will be too late.  I won’t do anything myself and I have no one to take it to.  So basically, while it gets built I have the choice of caps and that’s it. Good to hear you impressions on the AN Caps.  All I could find on them is that they are not open enough.  But that could a good for this type of DAC.  

The AN UK Copper caps are sluggish, thick in the lower mids and generally lumpy, no details. I had them in my `conquest MBs, AN pre-amp and DACs. Even the AN DAC 5 had them in. I think they are really poor. Needless to say I replaced all of them, with the resulting increase in speed, transparency, bass extension and texture. Basically waking up each unit.

The V-Caps Teflons are too much detail, and it comes with a price, cold and harshness. The V-Caps Coppers are better, nearly as detailed more realistic tone so way better than the AN Coppers at this point. The Duelunds are heavenly. If the V-Caps Coppers are 7 I would say the Duelunds are 9. I put them in my DAC 5 and wow, different machine completely. The AN Silvers are supposed to be close to the Duelunds, and even more money, but a buddy of mine tried them and sold them, saying they were cold for hours, i.e. took half a day to charge up and sound balanced, and didn't get to the Duelund levels anyway.

The coupling caps in many tube amps and Dacs are the single most component to change the sound, so IMO it is best to view them as critical, even though it can get pricy. It is easy to change them yourself with a steady hand, maybe 30 minutes tops.

So my score is:

AN Copper 3 (poor)

V-Caps Teflon 5 (detailed, fast but too cold)

V-Caps Copper 7 (very good, could stop hear if money is an issue)

Duelund Copper Cast 9 (amazing, heavenly)

Duelund Copper with Silver bypass 10 (perfect) 

Personally, I would never bypass coupling capacitors. I keep the 'art of' bypassing in the power supply and the speaker crossovers. Again, be wary to what is written on the internet and see if there is a possibility to check things out for yourself. Replacing coupling capacitors is a really easy job to do and if you don't trust yourself doing this perhaps someone in a guitar shop who is servicing amplifiers could do this for you. So heres a contradiction for you, try and do some reading on the internet of people who compared the Audyn capacitors with the Duelund. It's still a matter of taste and something that one should hear for himself, but it's safer gambling money (with the internet on par or above).

The only true thing to avoid are the Audio Note Kasei electrolytic capacitors. Playing with the status of the Black Gate (but lacking the graphite paper which put the 'black' in the Black Gate), these over expensive capacitors - the most significant aspect of similarity to the BG - have an overall poor sound (ok, the mids/voicing is pretty good but as a result it 'flattens' the sound). I've been playing with them for way too long at a critical point in my amplifier. The sound after repositioning the Silmic II was so apparently more musical.. this, despite my Japan-fetish vouching for these Kasei caps...

Anyways, there are several practices in the world of audio, and the worst possible approach would be that the amount of money spend equals the amount of sound quality you get. Of course we deal with material properties (silver is more expensive than copper) and build quality. Without a frame of reference, anything can be good or bad. We are conditioned that spending more money results in better quality and this will shape our interpretation (which is per definition subjective). I am pretty sure that if you would keep the copper AN capacitors, any dissatisfaction with the sound of your dac will be directly linked to the coupling capacitors because of the things you've read. 

The AN UK approach of 'levels' in their amplifiers are directly coupled to this money-equals-sound approach. One can only imagine the discomfort one gets with a real Audio Note system (Kondo) where the amplifier can't be altered in levels because it already is at its best......

My goodness, I can't quite believe what I have read....

So, by my own ears and experimentations I am wrong, and am basing my judgement on price v performance? I just recommended the V-Caps Coppers as a good alternative to the Duelunds. On silver by-pass, I think you will find many do this in finished products, such as Lampizator Golden Gate for example. The bypass as cheap so possible to try it out.

On Kasei caps, they are not for coupling duties, they are in the PS and are electrolytics. The BGs being better, maybe, but the BG thing is over blown IMO.

In this case, and the original question, I would say try the V-Caps coppers, no big deal if they don't work, can sell them and low loss after. BUT I would bet they will blow the AN copper out of the water, that is unless you like muddy sluggish and coloured sound?

22 minutes ago, astrostar59 said:

My goodness, I can't quite believe what I have read....

 

So, by my own ears and experimentations I am wrong, and am basing my judgement on price v performance? I just recommended the V-Caps Coppers as a good alternative to the Duelunds. On silver by-pass, I think you will find many do this in finished products, such as Lampizator Golden Gate for example. The bypass as cheap so possible to try it out.

 

On Kasei caps, they are not for coupling duties, they are in the PS and are electrolytics. The BGs being better, maybe, but the BG thing is over blown IMO.

 

In this case, and the original question, I would say try the V-Caps coppers, no big deal if they don't work, can sell them and low loss after. BUT I would bet they will blow the AN copper out of the water, that is unless you like muddy sluggish and coloured sound?

No, your own ears and experimentation are fine. I am just giving advice not to outsource this to anyone on the internet (including my own advice). 

I never mentioned using the Kasei as coupling capacitors, I would never use an electrolytic as a coupling capacitor or directly in the signal path (perhaps in a headphone amp if there's no money for output transformers). I agree with the BG being over blown, the Kasei caps wanted hop on the wave where the BG left of... My listening experience is that they DON'T deliver, especially not for the price range which is utterly ridiculous. Silmic II are my choice for electrolytic capacitors, and in the PSU it varying on function Obbligato oil/ASC, Unicon, JJ (yes, I mean it) and Mundorf. Note that I have ofcourse not tried everything everywhere...

I tried to address market speculation here which AN UK does like to exploit. For example, if you check hificollective and the switches they sell. The AN switches (it was sold for 60-70 pounds, now unreachable on the web store) are the same as the Blore switches (28 pounds), I wonder whats the AN UK process to increase the value of this switch. Also, the SEIDEN switches are the ones to get: The AN switches are like sanding paper where SEIDEN is face-creme.

Also, I am not saying that its not possible to improve the AN copper capacitors. But if there are Beyschlag resistors everywhere (or these Kasei caps), there are other fish to fry.....
 

Good reply thank you. Sorry if we had a 'thing' there. AN UK, could say lots about Peter Q, but won't go there. All I will say is do the research....

The kits, different story. Really good value and great sound, realistic for the money, take from that what you will re AN UK the and their pricing strategy.

32 minutes ago, astrostar59 said:

Good reply thank you. Sorry if we had a 'thing' there. AN UK, could say lots about Peter Q, but won't go there. All I will say is do the research....

 

The kits, different story. Really good value and great sound, realistic for the money, take from that what you will re AN UK the and their pricing strategy.

No worries! 

With audio it's all about reasoning and with this sport one stays healthy right? It is important to pick and get informed by the people from who you think you can learn and constantly keep in the back of your mind this 'your milage may vary' sentence. I'm just putting my finger on the toxic qualities the cocktail of money and subjectivity has got.

This video at the 6:38 mark, the Ultimate Special Edition Signature MKII sums up the complete audio madness: "If you move up the Audio Note food chain, you get a little bit more refinement every step of the way". 

Just spotted this thread, I have some thoughts:

Well, there is so much BS on Audio Note. I ask the question, can a simple SET amplifier design really be so perfect, that as we start to charge 5x more money and use that same circuit and but add a few 'special' parts, 'in house wound silver transformers' and 'magic' I/V transformers that results in a top of the league sound. I would pitch the thought, they don't have a better design, just push the use of silver and 'special' resistors to justify the incredible price tags.

If we are really saying the simple base Conquest MB is so perfect, that they can call it something else, add those 'magic' parts and it suddenly becomes a giant slayer of a 80K+ amp, well Peter must be a genius then. Or is it BS? That is the big question.

Those old snell 2 ways, 80K for the top of the line model, really..... The DAC 5 Signature is what, 55K, the Special is 32K?, the only difference I see between those models is the 'magic' transformers. So 23K for what, the 2 output trans and the 2 I/Vs then, good value!

Best look elsewhere IMO, other great manufacturers doing better for much less. The AN Level 2-3 is ok-ish for performance v price, only just. After that it is creative pricing strategy gone mad. Odd how they usually demo the Level 2-3 gear, almost never the level 5 stuff, the Fifth Element DAC or M10 pre ect.

Rant over, my advice, try before you buy, keep an open mind and try other gear as well .... I did and never looked back, but bitter over the money I have wasted over the years on AN gear.

I'm not sure I understand the problem here.  If you don't think an Audio Note product (or any other product for that matter) is worth the money then don't buy it.  

I suspect the reason they normally demonstrate the lower level kit is that that's what most attendees at shows might buy.

7 hours ago, astrostar59 said:

My goodness, I can't quite believe what I have read....

 

So, by my own ears and experimentations I am wrong, and am basing my judgement on price v performance? I just recommended the V-Caps Coppers as a good alternative to the Duelunds. On silver by-pass, I think you will find many do this in finished products, such as Lampizator Golden Gate for example. The bypass as cheap so possible to try it out.

 

On Kasei caps, they are not for coupling duties, they are in the PS and are electrolytics. The BGs being better, maybe, but the BG thing is over blown IMO.

 

In this case, and the original question, I would say try the V-Caps coppers, no big deal if they don't work, can sell them and low loss after. BUT I would bet they will blow the AN copper out of the water, that is unless you like muddy sluggish and coloured sound?

Thanks, that is very helpful! 

3 hours ago, the_bat said:

I'm not sure I understand the problem here.  If you don't think an Audio Note product (or any other product for that matter) is worth the money then don't buy it.  

 

I suspect the reason they normally demonstrate the lower level kit is that that's what most attendees at shows might buy.

 

 

Sympathy to the brand, fair enough. My problem is I had to learn the hard way.

The_bat, can you explain the pricing structure to me, I am curious on your opinion.... do parts quality in the same circuit design mean that an amp or pre-amp is really worth 5 times the price, even that it sounds a lot better? Are we saying the circuit is so perfect it can't be bettered, only by parts quality upgrades. The silver transformers, got be worth 20k right?

6 minutes ago, tubefanboy said:

Sympathy to the brand, fair enough. My problem is I had to learn the hard way.

 

The_bat, can you explain the pricing structure to me, I am curious on your opinion.... do parts quality in the same circuit design mean that an amp or pre-amp is really worth 5 times the price, even that it sounds a lot better? Are we saying the circuit is so perfect it can't be bettered, only by parts quality upgrades. The silver transformers, got be worth 20k right?

I think your commenting in the wrong thread! This about ANK Kits, not Audio Note UK. Separate companies, different components and price structures. Over all, night and day difference and your comments don't fit this thread.  

Fair enough, venting over. Yes the kits are great value, and I still have a DAC kit as a second DAC. And the kits don't fall into the price v performance issue.... actually are great value IMO.

13 minutes ago, tubefanboy said:

Fair enough, venting over. Yes the kits are great value, and I still have a DAC kit as a second DAC. And the kits don't fall into the price v performance issue.... actually are great value IMO.

Agreed.  I have a nicely done Sabre dac that was built and voiced to ear, and is very smooth and transparent.  Recently I have experimented with up sampling in Roon and don’t like what I am hearing.  So , now I am ready to try a different approach.  For me it’s not about NOS, but more about no extra digital processing and filters.  

I might hate it. But I got a deal on this unit and could resell it easy.  If I love it, then I am off the DAC merry-go round. My amp, speakers, cables and power conditioners are lifetime products. I would love to find the DAC equivalent to fit.

The only tech that might change for me in the future is upgrading the front end source which is cheap now with companies like ALLO. I am using the Digione and it is crazy how good it is for so little.  

astrostar59

may tweak your DAC to the next level and just peal off the plastic of all electrolyte caps. I did this on all my gear and it was like .

Be careful that the Aluminum does not touch any layer or ground.

Than report back..

BB

Ok, I went with the CuFT's. (Thanks Astrostar.) Even though I got a good deal on the Kit, it was still and stretch and can't justify the Duelunds at double the price. I think the Jupiter Coppers would have been good as well from all I have read, but I am pretty confident the CuFT's will be the best for the money in this application. I think squeezing allowing as much resolution and transparency out from this vintage chip is important. 

One (dumb) question I have is are the choice of caps less critical being that the 4.1 is transformer coupled? Someone told me that, but it doesn't make sense to me. As long as there are caps in the signal line, they will have an effect on the sound, right?  

8 minutes ago, Orangecrush said:

Ok, I went with the CuFT's. (Thanks Astrostar.) Even though I got a good deal on the Kit, it was still and stretch and can't justify the Duelunds at double the price. I think the Jupiter Coppers would have been good as well from all I have read, but I am pretty confident the CuFT's will be the best for the money in this application. I think squeezing allowing as much resolution and transparency out from this vintage chip is important. 

 

One (dumb) question I have is are the choice of caps less critical being that the 4.1 is transformer coupled? Someone told me that, but it doesn't make sense to me. As long as there are caps in the signal line, they will have an effect on the sound, right?  

 

Nice choice Orangecrush. You will be happy I am sure of it. The V-Caps Coppers are close to the Duelunds, and have the fast bass and dynamics of the Teflons, but less cold and bright, more natural balance. Blow the crappy AN Copper out of the water Ha Ha.

On the Transfomer outputs, you are still massively effected by the coupling caps on the line board. So don't think you have wasted your money on those caps. The C-Cores lower the output impedance right down to drive the next stage amongst other benefits.

When you get the DAC be aware the V-Caps need about 500 hours!!! to run in, so be patient. The DAC will sound flat and constricted for a week or so, then up and down a bit for a while. It should reach full performance at 500 hours. I would leave it on 24/7 and run some tunes on repeat overnight (with your power amp tuned off of volume down).

When it is run in, you can upgrade the line board tubes to some nice Tungsol NOS which I find really good, and then a Bendix in the 6X5 slot, and a Mullard NOS for the ECL82, or go for an NOS Telefunken or NOS RCA if you find you want more detail. Avoid new tubes, they are rubbish.

Good luck my friend!

i had a  Audio-dac 4.1  4 years ago and spend hundred of hours and a lot of money at hifi collective to mod it , Vcap copper everywhere, , obligato in place of the electrolyte in power supply ,  shotky diodes , tantalum resistor everywhere , thansformers upgrade, , 470uf stacked film cap for the tube cathode bypass , etc...    and the bigger upgrade was when i sold it and bought a T+A DSD 8 . with no mods needed ..

so my humble advise is when a gear needs tons of upgrade too sounds good , don't waste your money and buy  a better one ( it will be cheaper at the end)..

On 2/22/2018 at 10:43 PM, Orangecrush said:

 

I think your commenting in the wrong thread! This about ANK Kits, not Audio Note UK. Separate companies, different components and price structures. Over all, night and day difference and your comments don't fit this thread.  

 

Well, ANK used to really be the kit version of Audio Note. Apparently when the supply lacked Brian offered different components than the ones stated, like Beyschlag resistors instead of tantalum resistors etc. I get a hunch that AN UK doesn't like the fact that through the internet people educate themselves. Quality control is exactly that what caused Audio Note to divide itself into Kondo and UK. 
My approach to this is this works like a division between an approach of hollistic perfection (Kondo) and market perfection (UK). The schematics aren't that special but the use of material is. In the case of UK its not all the time something that happens honestly, with transformers you can speculate, but the example of the switches you cannot. Besides that these switches have really really shitty handling, it's reach of 24 steps is fairly low. Does it matter much? Depends. If you sell your amplifiers as the legend that the Ongaku is, then in my opinion it does. The monopoly exploits of UK are quite offensive. Anyways, Kondo has moved on and I know my pick if my audio-budget would have been in that range....

Anyways, I think that the point has been made, and I'm more curious about what people do with the kits rather than what AN UK does with the market. When the time comes I'll peel the plastic off the electrolytics. I once did the modification of an electrolytic by not only peeling the plastic off, but removing the entire aluminum housing and casting it into wood and beeswax. After installing them, the lady that was in my place at that time was stunned by the change in sound. 

I view AN or ANK DACs as an "alternative" option for people who do not want to follow a mainstream approach.  

That’s why I went with a low powered but very fast and transparant tube amp, with tube voltage regulators or the inputs and outputs and tube rectification and high efficiency speakers. Incredible bang for buck for where it matters to me.

I don't want a $100.000 sound system that can try to do it all, I want the best vocal midrange that gives me goosebumps and emotional engagement.  Note, I am not talking about warmth. To get the emotion without warmth is hard to get.

If a stock 4.1 kit (which comes with AN tantalums in key positions), upgraded caps in the output and nice NOS tubes doesn’t deliver, then I will be surprised. But, I guess we will see! 

I know with my amp, with Brimar 5R4YG/CV717's and NOS regulators are a huge part of the seductive sound I crave.

@astrostar59

Hey, have you ever tried any Raytheon 5687? 

I seem to remember Peter Q liking them after Tung Sols.

I have the Bendix 5852 coming. 

Yes Raytheon, but the Tungsols are famous for being a great 5687, maybe the best ever and not too expensive.

Thanks.  Tung Sol it is.