The realization that perhaps I don’t need tubes in the chain!!!

Hi everyone, just like to share my thoughts on a recent change in mindsets or direction I might want to explore.

Currently a Schiit Freya + preamp owner. Been overall pretty happy with it for the past few years until last week the tube stage went dead with no output (but the passive mode and solid state differential mode works fine)

Going to drop it off to my friend who is an amp tech to fix it.

Honestly i had been mostly using the tube stage of the Freya + for all my listening in my main system and wasn’t giving much love to the passive or solid state differential mode at 0db gain for the past few years…

In the meantime, I get to use the passive mode and the solid state mode and I got to say I am not sure if I miss the tube stage!!
 

Sure You don't get that holographic, expanded soundstage but especially the passive mode is sounding really nice, natural and organic!!!
 
I will get the Freya + tube stage fixed regardless but it really seems like I have now converted. I started looking at potentially getting a solid state preamp maybe a Benchmark LA4, Schiit Kara or maybe a Bryston BP173 and wonder what that will do to my system having a revealing preamp with gain compared to my current setup which is basically using the Freya + as a passive preamp for volume control!!!

The rest of my speaker setup is Ifi pro idsd dac or Holo Cyan 2 -> Freya + -> nuprime evolution sta power amp -> Monitor Audio PL200ii and 2 PSA 15” down firing sealed subs.

cheers and thanks for reading

Deric

I think you will only find out by adding the various pre-amps and listening.

There will be technical arguments for and against adding a pre-amp (active or passive) vs digital volume control. You can also trial tube vs solid state pre amps.

Interesting you describe "natural and organic" sound with tubes out of the system (if understanding correctly). In the past I think many would have found the opposite. I have all solid state now and do find it natural and organic and do not miss the tubes from yesteryear.

FWIW I have always preferred active (with gain) preamp in the system over passive or digital volume control. The caveat is it must be a good quality unit that does whatever it does (impedance matching or source output or signal/voltage gain...) without degrading the signal through its power supply etc ie less distortion. Some will say that is not possible, others swear by it. You must decide. It will also depend on implementation and circumstances but thus far I prefer with active preamp.

48 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

I think you will only find out by adding the various pre-amps and listening.

 

There will be technical arguments for and against adding a pre-amp (active or passive) vs digital volume control. You can also trial tube vs solid state pre amps.

Interesting you describe "natural and organic" sound with tubes out of the system (if understanding correctly). In the past I think many would have found the opposite. I have all solid state now and do find it natural and organic and do not miss the tubes from yesteryear.

 

FWIW I have always preferred active (with gain) preamp in the system over passive or digital volume control. The caveat is it must be a good quality unit that does whatever it does (impedance matching or source output or signal/voltage gain...) without degrading the signal through its power supply etc ie less distortion. Some will say that is not possible, others swear by it. You must decide. It will also depend on implementation and circumstances but thus far I prefer with active preamp.

Thanks for your comments. Just to provide a bit more background of my preamp.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/schiit-freya-pre-amp-review.36059/

The Schiit Freya plus is a preamp with three modes - 1) passive preamp mode that is simply a direct pass through with complete transparency, as you can see from the measurements, SINAD of 121db at unity gain, that’s pretty much just showing the SINAD of the analyzer!! 
 

2) Solid state differential mode at 0 db gain, that is the active preamp mode - this is where I think it perhaps does not sound as good as a better active preamp with gain. I am not good at describing sound quality but this is no where near as good as passive mode, it sounds almost a bit dry and thin with a bit of exaggeration of bass…

3) Tube mode that goes through a different circuitry powered by 4 6SN7 tubes with 12db of gain. I had been using the tube mode for the longest time and used to think that it sounded “natural, organic, coherent” but I am starting to think otherwise !!!

Currently the tube mode is dead, that’s why I had started to experiment the solid state mode and discovered I really enjoyed the passive mode, while I wait for my buddy to have time to fix the tube mode…

10 minutes ago, dericchan1 said:

Thanks for your comments. Just to provide a bit more background of my preamp.

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/schiit-freya-pre-amp-review.36059/

 

The Schiit Freya plus is a preamp with three modes - 1) passive preamp mode that is simply a direct pass through with complete transparency, as you can see from the measurements, SINAD of 121db at unity gain, that’s pretty much just showing the SINAD of the analyzer!! 
 

2) Solid state differential mode at 0 db gain, that is the active preamp mode - this is where I think it perhaps does not sound as good as a better active preamp with gain. I am not good at describing sound quality but this is no where near as good as passive mode, it sounds almost a bit dry and thin with a bit of exaggeration of bass…

 

3) Tube mode that goes through a different circuitry powered by 4 6SN7 tubes with 12db of gain. I had been using the tube mode for the longest time and used to think that it sounded “natural, organic, coherent” but I am starting to think otherwise !!!

 

Currently the tube mode is dead, that’s why I had started to experiment the solid state mode and discovered I really enjoyed the passive mode, while I wait for my buddy to have time to fix the tube mode…

I will let others talk about the measurements. If you are finding the passive mode arguably better than the tube preamp mode it is possible that you do not need to add a preamp at all (solid state or other kind) eg if not addressing impedance mismatching or whatever.You would have to try a very good quality active SS preamp to see what if any improvements occur. Subjectively, for me , it has been mainly improvement in 'body' and texture sounding more lifelike, less signature which is counterintuitive when adding something. You must be careful to volume match when doing comparisons.

25 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

I will let others talk about the measurements. If you are finding the passive mode arguably better than the tube preamp mode it is possible that you do not need to add a preamp at all (solid state or other kind) eg if not addressing impedance mismatching or whatever.You would have to try a very good quality active SS preamp to see what if any improvements occur. Subjectively, for me , it has been mainly improvement in 'body' and texture sounding more lifelike, less signature which is counterintuitive when adding something. You must be careful to volume match when doing comparisons.

My power amp 

• Input Impedance: 47K Ohms

should not be too difficult to find suitable preamp 

9 hours ago, dericchan1 said:

Hi everyone, just like to share my thoughts on a recent change in mindsets or direction I might want to explore.

 

Currently a Schiit Freya + preamp owner. Been overall pretty happy with it for the past few years until last week the tube stage went dead with no output (but the passive mode and solid state differential mode works fine)

 

Going to drop it off to my friend who is an amp tech to fix it.

 

Honestly i had been mostly using the tube stage of the Freya + for all my listening in my main system and wasn’t giving much love to the passive or solid state differential mode at 0db gain for the past few years…

In the meantime, I get to use the passive mode and the solid state mode and I got to say I am not sure if I miss the tube stage!!
 

Sure You don't get that holographic, expanded soundstage but especially the passive mode is sounding really nice, natural and organic!!!
 
I will get the Freya + tube stage fixed regardless but it really seems like I have now converted. I started looking at potentially getting a solid state preamp maybe a Benchmark LA4, Schiit Kara or maybe a Bryston BP173 and wonder what that will do to my system having a revealing preamp with gain compared to my current setup which is basically using the Freya + as a passive preamp for volume control!!!

The rest of my speaker setup is Ifi pro idsd dac or Holo Cyan 2 -> Freya + -> nuprime evolution sta power amp -> Monitor Audio PL200ii and 2 PSA 15” down firing sealed subs.

cheers and thanks for reading

 

Deric

Very interesting. One of the cool things about your preamp is the ability to switch modes. It’s something people should do once in a while even if one of them isn’t broken. It costs nothing to try and can open one’s eyes to something different and enjoyable. 
 

10 hours ago, dericchan1 said:

The rest of my speaker setup is Ifi pro idsd dac or Holo Cyan 2 -> Freya + -> nuprime evolution sta power amp -> Monitor Audio PL200ii and 2 PSA 15” down firing sealed subs.

Do you need two DAC's? Is that why you want a preamp? The iFi has a very good analogue stage, it even has tubey sound, if you wish. You should give it a try. My system is all digital, no need for a preamp, never going back.

I compared all three of the Pro iDSD's output modes, but consistently preferred the Tube+ mode; to my ears, a dollop of second-harmonic sauce stimulates my sensory neurons in a manner that lets my brain fill in the lost data necessary for me to enjoy richer instrumental textures and a more complete tonal-harmonic spectrum. To my mind, second-harmonic "distortion" (I call it "doubling") lubricates the neurotransmission of complex sensory data, enhancing voice articulation and soundstage mapping.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/ifi-audio-pro-idsd-da-processorheadphone-amplifier

19 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

Do you need two DAC's? Is that why you want a preamp? The iFi has a very good analogue stage, it even has tubey sound, if you wish. You should give it a try. My system is all digital, no need for a preamp, never going back.

 

I compared all three of the Pro iDSD's output modes, but consistently preferred the Tube+ mode; to my ears, a dollop of second-harmonic sauce stimulates my sensory neurons in a manner that lets my brain fill in the lost data necessary for me to enjoy richer instrumental textures and a more complete tonal-harmonic spectrum. To my mind, second-harmonic "distortion" (I call it "doubling") lubricates the neurotransmission of complex sensory data, enhancing voice articulation and soundstage mapping.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/ifi-audio-pro-idsd-da-processorheadphone-amplifier

 

 

I have the Cyan 2 and Ifi pro, I am trying to debate which one stays in the main system and which one goes to the bedroom system, so currently they are both connected to a usb hub and to the preamp through xlr at the same time. The comparison of the two dacs should probably be in a separate thread.
Hahaha

i do agree the ifi pro has a pretty decent analog preamp and even comes with the option of a hybrid tube stage, tube stage or the solid state stage…

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Very interesting. One of the cool things about your preamp is the ability to switch modes. It’s something people should do once in a while even if one of them isn’t broken. It costs nothing to try and can open one’s eyes to something different and enjoyable. 
 

 

Agreed. Plus it comes in handy when one mode breaks down hahahaha

Don’t get me wrong, the tube stage of the Freya +, with a quad set of RCA red plate NOS tubes “did” sound great with a holographic sound stage, pleasing coloration … I was happy with it. It’s almost like a sudden change in taste for me now listening to a passive preamp 

12 minutes ago, dericchan1 said:

i do agree the ifi pro has a pretty decent analog preamp and even comes with the option of a hybrid tube stage, tube stage or the solid state stage

So you have tried it with no preamp?

I would lose that USB hub for the DAC comparisons. It has to be homogenising the sound.

Just now, audiobomber said:

So you have tried it?

I would lose that USB hub for the DAC comparisons. It has to be compromising the sound.

Yes i have tried all three modes of the ifi pro, as a matter of fact, i try the different modes on the fly pretty often, more often than trying the different modes on the Freya. I even bought a pair of pretty expensive WE296 NOS matched tubes to upgrade the stock tubes of the ifi dac…

the Anker usb hub is passive and good for easy comparison but should not impact sound quality since I have an intona usb isolator in the mix.

cheers

Deric

40 minutes ago, dericchan1 said:

Yes i have tried all three modes of the ifi pro, as a matter of fact, i try the different modes on the fly pretty often, more often than trying the different modes on the Freya. I even bought a pair of pretty expensive WE296 NOS matched tubes to upgrade the stock tubes of the ifi dac…

 

the Anker usb hub is passive and good for easy comparison but should not impact sound quality since I have an intona usb isolator in the mix.

Sorry, still not clear. Have you tried the iFi directly connected to your power amp, without the Freya in the system? That is how Herb Reichert used it and what I am suggesting.

I expect you are using the USB hub so yiu can do A-B comparisons. I may use AB as a preliminary check, but it is not reliable, IME. The best way to compare is to live with each exclusively for a few days before changing.

2 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

Sorry, still not clear. Have you tried the iFi directly connected to your power amp, without the Freya in the system? That is how Herb Reichert used it and what I am suggesting.

 

I expect you are using the USB hub so yiu can do A-B comparisons. I may use AB as a preliminary check, but it is not reliable, IME. The best way to compare is to live with each exclusively for a few days before changing.

Yes I have tried ifi directly to power amp without the Freya. 
 

what I have not tried is to use the cyan 2 directly to the power amp and just use digital volume.

6 hours ago, dericchan1 said:

the Anker usb hub is passive and good for easy comparison but should not impact sound quality since I have an intona usb isolator in the mix.

I think its just about trying to eliminate variables that may confound the outcome.

I have run SETs and both low and high powered PP tube designs.  I have also tried a few tube pre amps with solid state amps, and a tubed DAC with both solid state and tube amplification.

The one set up that I generally disliked was using a tubed preamp with solid state amps.  The Aqua DAC and the Gill Audio tubed DAC were both okay with solid state amps.  Same with the Qualiton tubed phono stage.

I keep switching back and forth between MZ2(tube) and Topping Pre90 (SS). The MZ2 has a much better feel for imaging and lack of harmonic irritants but the Pre90

is far better for resolution of individual instruments and linear response at frequency extremes. I think a lot depends on the clarity of your speaker drivers, if you have cabinet

and driver resonances they would mask what tubes can provide. Not a fan of traditional tube pre designs, IME most are euphonic from interaction of the tubes and

PS transformer.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying I have now converted to all SS. I am still using a class A EL84 tube amp in my bedroom and some hybrid int amp in my home office. 

When I bought the Freya +, the goal was to have a tube pre-amp to go with a solid state amp in my speaker setup. The passive preamp mode and active solid state mode of the Freya + to me was just a nice bonus to have and I never really spent time with it.

I tube rolled a lot with the Freya +, it was fun and the tube mode sounds great. In fact I was so happy with the tube mode last year I decided to "hot rod" the Freya tube mode with the V-cap Odam and audio note tantalum resistors along with a few other things... the mods almost cost just as much as the cost of the Freya + but was totally worth it as it really brought the Freya tube stage to the next level as if veil was lifted...

So I think my recent "realization" could be a change in taste/mindset or even the fact that I started out listening to a lot of jazz, classical stuff and still do but now listening to more to pop/rock, hard rock, punk, metal..... 

Update: so just came back from my amp tech buddy, it took him like 5 minutes to get the tube mode up and running again. He said Schiit had very thin layer of soldering for the tube stage and he noticed some “cold joint”.

He added some soldering it’s up and running again!!

will spend this evening listening to the tube stage again and see how I feel about it!!

cheers

Deric

A bit of an update to revive the thread.

Purchased a used Simaudio moon 350p neo preamp

Had the 350P NEO in the system and played for a few hours last night. I will definitely need more time to further assess the preamp. Also I have not yet re-done my measurements and bass management so I am basically using the existing full frequency correction convolution filter for the Schiit Freya + (I am assuming both preamp is pretty linear in frequency response, I know for a fact the Schiit Freya + is, until I have more time in July to do a full measurement of the room) but initial impression is very positive. A few thoughts:

1) It is an overall very refine piece of equipment. From build quality, features, silent operations... everything spells high end to me.

- Absolutely dead silent powering it on or off.

- HT-bypass works perfectly. The function can be enabled by a press of a button and it saves in its memories until you reset it.

- The remote definitely looks cheap and ugly, but works extremely well unlike the Schiit Freya remote that is a pain to use for volume control

- I love the fact that now I am able to use the trigger function - wake up the 350P from standby mode will power up the power amp and set the 350P to standby mode at the end of the night triggers the power amp to standby. Super convenient.

- Even the motorized volume pot was absolutely dead silent in operation

2) Sound quality wise, no complains - credits to the 350P, it sounded so clean, detailed and overall very neutral it is very closed compared to the Schiit Freya + in passive preamp mode, which is my reference point since its absolutely transparent and neutral sounding it sounds identical to connecting your DAC directly to a power amp.

Compared to the Schiit Freya + in passive mode, the 350P appears to have added a very slight touch of refineness and smoothness to the highs and perhaps a tiny bit more slam to the bass but overall the 350P is very revealing and neutral sounding. 

Kudos to the Schiit Freya + too, their passive preamp is just absolutely transparent with no loss in dynamics. Without comparing to the 350P, I always wonder if the Schiit Freya + in passive preamp mode may actually lose some dynamics but that is apparently not the case. 

The 350P overall sounds very closed to the Schiit Freya + passive mode with added gain, which is always welcome. I never had to dial the 350P volume pass 10 o'clock to get to my normal listening level at about 80db.

The Freya + is not going anywhere. I do love the tube stage of the Freya +, so much that last year I had invested into upgraded quad set of v-caps and audio note silver series tantalum resistors and a few other tweaks to improve on the tube stage. The cost of the parts alone was almost the cost of the Freya + unit itself but it was totally a worthwhile upgrade as it brings the tube stage of the Freya + to a different level...
 

Listening to Billie Eilish latest album “Hit me hard and soft”!! With the ifi pro idsd dac in tube mode with a pair of nos we396a. dsd512 pushed Billie’s vocal a bit distant, setting to dsd256 brings the vocal back a touch more forward… The 350p and the ifi pro is quite a magical combination, a good mix of some tube magic with a revealing preamp. Image is a bit less precise but the soundstage had expanded a bit in both width and depth…

Btw. This has to be the best Eilish’s album to date!!!

Switched to Laufey “Bewitched Goddess edition” adding a touch of tube warmth to Laufey’s lovely vocal was a great addition as well

I know i said it before that I thought I had come to the realization about not needing tubes… 😂 

7 hours ago, dericchan1 said:

Btw. This has to be the best Eilish’s album to date!!!

I absolutely love the album. 

I am using a new build SMC Audio TLC 2 passive pre amp with 6db of gain that I have reviewed here. Tube folks who have heard it say it sounds tube like. Been decades since I had tubes in my system but I love the organic 3D sound I am getting,especially in the midrange. Will have to check out the Elish album.

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I absolutely love the album. 

Still figuring out what I think of it. I find that her songs demand understanding the lyrics in order to appreciate them; the music alone doesn't do it for me, and personally, I find her delivery makes it difficult to understand the lyrics. 

So on Qobuz, was disappointed to find no lyrics included with the 24/96.; then I noticed that the 16/44.1 does have lyrics embedded. I never get why there isn't quality control to take care of this stuff. 

I guess it just shows the lack of regard for customers. 

5 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I absolutely love the album. 

Thanks Chris. An excellent album indeed. 

I love the album so much I have been using that to compare my setup these days - Moon preamp with the Holo Cyan 2 compared with the IFI Pro tube dac. In the next few days I will be playing this album again with the HQPlayer Signalyst DSC2 dac in the setup...

Cheers

Deric