Some tips to improve my HIFI setup?

I am just getting into HIFI and have seen some tips on speaker placement, but because my space is not exactly a typical example case, it is difficult for me to apply what I have observed. I've made a plan with what I found relevant, maybe I missed some details, if so, let me know and I'll rectify it.

Having said that, would anyone care to give me some tips on how to improve the listening experience? Is there really anything that can be done? I know that the possible speaker positions are very limited.

Amp. NAD C368 + NAD MDC BluOS2i

Speakers. Jamo S 807 B (I know, is a transitional situation)

Nico, it would help if you explained what all the rectangular shapes are ? Seats, cupboards, walls, hifi furniture etc ??

And what is ‘behind’ the speakers where the 2.6 box is ? Is it a wall, half-open, open to a vide etc ?

What are the walls ? Any windows with window coverings ?

Could really do with a LOT more info !

And welcome 🙏 

Walls, columns and unavailable space is marked with an X. Otherwise, I think this image will be much more enlightening than anything I can say.

This is not so bad--NAD and B&W are great, and I've seen people showing off much more expensive systems with much worse placement--you're off to a good start.

I like that you have plenty of space behind the speakers, but they seem a bit far away and close to the side walls.  You want approx an equilateral triangle of you and the speakers.  Can you get rid of the side piece of the sectional and pull them a bit closer to you?

5 hours ago, PeterG said:

This is not so bad--NAD and B&W are great, and I've seen people showing off much more expensive systems with much worse placement--you're off to a good start.

 

I like that you have plenty of space behind the speakers, but they seem a bit far away and close to the side walls.  You want approx an equilateral triangle of you and the speakers.  Can you get rid of the side piece of the sectional and pull them a bit closer to you?

Thanks for your input! I have made some small changes with the information you have given me and the difference is brutal, I had the right speaker displaced from the centre, I have moved them a little closer and away from the columns, I have directed them in an angle a little more open. Sound is much larger in size.

Tomorrow I will try another single change to continue testing. 

18 hours ago, PeterG said:

This is not so bad--NAD and B&W are great, and I've seen people showing off much more expensive systems with much worse placement--you're off to a good start.

 

I like that you have plenty of space behind the speakers, but they seem a bit far away and close to the side walls.  You want approx an equilateral triangle of you and the speakers.  Can you get rid of the side piece of the sectional and pull them a bit closer to you?

 PeterG What do you mean by ‘B&W’?

28 minutes ago, Nicoalix said:

 

 PeterG What do you mean by ‘B&W’?

Bondage and Whips 🫢

or maybe Bowers and Wilkins brand

I suggest starting here https://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/monitoring.htm

The photo does not look too bad but agree the speakers need to come away from side walls (especially on one side of solid wall opposite the column)

A more ideal situation is to try and get some symmetry....this is a bit hard since the speakers are skewed to one solid side wall. If it were possible I would tend to move the whole setup away from that side wall including the listening position which will stay in the middle of the speakers

The side sofa thing is okay in some ways for killing "first reflections" from the side wall but is asymmetrical compared to other side. The other side appears to have more open space (??) so may not produce a large side reflection ?? I would probably experiment with and without it if you can move the setup away from that side wall. generally I don't like first reflections from side walls

Ideally get speakers setup equidistant from side walls and away from side walls (as per Barry's recommendations) and treat the side reflection points with soft furnishings etc

Similarly not ideal to be sitting up against a back wall. Can produce problems with reflections and "comb filtering". Not a disaster but maybe an attractive soft rug /wall hanging behind you. The soft cushions of the sofa already against rear wall will be helpful also

On the left side, from the listening position, there is an open room, the entrance to the house, but in the future there will be a door, so I will deal with that problem once it is installed. I understand that your recommendation is to take the speakers out of that space, and put them in front of the columns, but not necessarily in front of them, but in a line where the columns are not right next to each speaker, is that right?

I will also think about the rear wall.

I leave some pictures with the current position, it continues to improve substantially.

I have a problem with the fireplace, it vibrates a lot, with the door open the effect is less, but still exists, any solution?

56 minutes ago, Nicoalix said:

On the left side, from the listening position, there is an open room, the entrance to the house, but in the future there will be a door, so I will deal with that problem once it is installed. I understand that your recommendation is to take the speakers out of that space, and put them in front of the columns, but not necessarily in front of them, but in a line where the columns are not right next to each speaker, is that right?

I will also think about the rear wall.

 

all other things being equal and they may not be, I would like to move both speakers and the couch to the left, being more symmetrically arranged in the space and not have anything hard up against any boundary wall (not the speakers, not the couch). The actual distance the speakers should be away from side walls will be determined by calculations described by Barry D, and then the limitations you have in placing the speakers where you want, but those distances away from side walls ideally should be the same for each speaker ie symmetrical (you dont want one speaker 1 foot from left side wall and 10 foot from other side wall.) The columns introduce a fixed limitation but if both speakers are moved to left they should end up being not  directly in front of columns anyway? It is good to have open space behind the speakers, not directly bouncing a rear reflection at you. If it were possible I would then move the couch and speakers out into the space away from the boundary where the couch is sitting hard up against but that may not be possible. Compromise and experiment is in order. Look at Barry's ideal setup and work backwards from there as to what is both possible and practical for you. same then applies for room treatments. Ideally your listening position and speakers should form either an equilateral triangle or perhaps even better an isosceles triangle.

As Barry says for speaker placement you can start by measuring for the 1/3

points -- one third the room's length and one third the room's width.  leave 1/3 behind the (front of) the speakers, and 1/3 between the (inside

edges of the ) speakers. Then, leaving the front inside corners at the 1/3 points, rotate the outside of each speaker forward (toward the listening position), so the

speakers are aiming at the center of the wall behind the listening position.  This is a *starting point* and the toe-in may need to be increased for some speakers. 

You will not likely be able to match this so experiment within your limitations and compromises

5 hours ago, Nicoalix said:

 

 PeterG What do you mean by ‘B&W’?

4 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Bondage and Whips 🫢

or maybe Bowers and Wilkins brand

Yes, but on closer inspection, it looks like I was wrong--I saw the gold/orange(?) drivers and took it for the yellow used in a previous generation of Bowers & Wilkins speakers.

5 hours ago, PeterG said:

 

 

Yes, but on closer inspection, it looks like I was wrong--I saw the gold/orange(?) drivers and took it for the yellow used in a previous generation of Bowers & Wilkins speakers.

Yes I believe I had those, speakers that is !

7 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

The columns introduce a fixed limitation but if both speakers are moved to left they should end up being not  directly in front of columns anyway? It is good to have open space behind the speakers, not directly bouncing a rear reflection at you. If it were possible I would then move the couch and speakers out into the space away from the boundary where the couch is sitting hard up against but that may not be possible

Can you take a photo of the adjacent spaces

12 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

Can you take a photo of the adjacent spaces

Do you mean this space?

18 hours ago, PeterG said:

 

 

Yes, but on closer inspection, it looks like I was wrong--I saw the gold/orange(?) drivers and took it for the yellow used in a previous generation of Bowers & Wilkins speakers.

These are Jamo's that I bought to enjoy the NAD until I start my first DIY speakers.

12 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

The columns introduce a fixed limitation but if both speakers are moved to left they should end up being not  directly in front of columns anyway? It is good to have open space behind the speakers, not directly bouncing a rear reflection at you. If it were possible I would then move the couch and speakers out into the space away from the boundary where the couch is sitting hard up against but that may not be possible

I have put the loudspeakers back ‘inside’ the space of the columns without them being behind. The actual result is still an improvement.

I want to keep my living room as such without compromising too much on its layout. The TV cabinet and the columns are a centre around which the whole layout is built.

On the other hand, I have noticed that if I direct the speakers a little beyond my shoulders, eliminating the convergence at the centre point, the image sensation in front of me is significantly greater, is it possible that this happens with these speakers in particular?

1 hour ago, Nicoalix said:

I have put the loudspeakers back ‘inside’ the space of the columns without them being behind. The actual result is still an improvement.

I want to keep my living room as such without compromising too much on its layout. The TV cabinet and the columns are a centre around which the whole layout is built.

 

On the other hand, I have noticed that if I direct the speakers a little beyond my shoulders, eliminating the convergence at the centre point, the image sensation in front of me is significantly greater, is it possible that this happens with these speakers in particular?

Okay I can see that you are limited by both a split level behind and steps at side.

It would appear then, yes, keeping the speakers 'inside' the columns (so not directly firing back on columns) is necessary and is probably ok. then experiment shifting speakers back or forwards a little depending on the triangle created with the listening position. Try equilateral, and isosceles (two equal sides fanning out from you, one shorter side between speakers). generally adjust toe -in so tweeters are pointed to your ears but some speakers need fine adjustment, in or out.

I'd hang something soft on that side wall to your right and behind you.

I would also experiment with DRC digital room correction because at the end of the day you are sitting in the corner of a much larger space which is not optimal and not correctable by changing the room or your location at the moment

One last thing to consider would be to totally change the axis, placing your TV and gear along the side wall on your right, then placing your couch facing the TV and have your back to the fireplace..oops no...you would have your back to fireplace..........maybe the TV next to fireplace?

37 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

I'd hang something soft on that side wall to your right and behind you.

This is what I will do next, along with minor corrections to the direction and position of the speakers, within the current limitations. Thank you very much for your suggestions, they are very helpful!

2 hours ago, Nicoalix said:

 

This is what I will do next, along with minor corrections to the direction and position of the speakers, within the current limitations. Thank you very much for your suggestions, they are very helpful!

while the space is challenging from an audio point of view, it certainly is beautiful.  i'm sure you love living there!

Hey, very nice place!

Another approach could be to turn it into more of a near field setup since that particular area is actually quite small, in a big space. Then you basically move the speakers much closer to each other and also move your couch closer as well. 

I understand that you might not like that idea, and you might come closer to the TV than you like, but i wanted to mention it anyway since many underestimate how awesome and immersive a nearfield setup can actually sound. But you then "need" to sit as close to the speakers as they are far from each other, for the best experience (normally).

18 hours ago, jcn3 said:

 

while the space is challenging from an audio point of view, it certainly is beautiful.  i'm sure you love living there!

15 hours ago, StreamingOnly said:

Hey, very nice place!

Thank you! It is a nice place.

At the moment the setup forms an equilateral triangle of 2.1m. I am still noticing an imbalance on the right side, which I am solving with -2db on the left speaker, but I feel that this is not the best solution. I imagine that the right wall is causing the imbalance and I'm willing to put something to avoid the direct reflection. This afternoon I will try something and give you my impressions.

I second @Audiophile Neuroscience comment that perhaps the best thing to do in the future is to explore digital room correction 

usually when people want to address room acoustic issues, you ideally first want lots of options to move your listening seat to smooth out your bass and then some room to move the speakers for further refinement and then the ability to put acoustic treatments on the walls and corners. You have a living room that significantly limits your options so any minor adjustments are simply not going to have that much impact. 
 

perhaps @Nicoalix next upgrade should be something like Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 so you can run RoomPerfect for digital room correction. It’ll be good for your current speakers and future speakers. Some higher end NAD supports Dirac but I find Dirac to be sometimes finicky and more prone to over-correction. 

1 hour ago, Nicoalix said:

At the moment the setup forms an equilateral triangle of 2.1m. I am still noticing an imbalance on the right side, which I am solving with -2db on the left speaker, but I feel that this is not the best solution. I imagine that the right wall is causing the imbalance and I'm willing to put something to avoid the direct reflection. This afternoon I will try something and give you my impressions.

I agree dropping the (whole of) the right speaker by -2dB is not a great idea as its like using a sledgehammer for the unwanted problem and adding a new problem of further unbalancing the direct sound. DRC will at least finesse the results adjusting only the frequencies deemed necessary and by whatever amount.

Also remember that its only the first or early direct reflections that are a problem coming off that right side wall and they are reasonably easy to deal with by placing something soft at the reflection point (the point where if you placed a mirror on the wall you could see your tweeter from your seated position).

Those reflections are only relevant for the higher frequencies that act more like rays (or like billiard balls bouncing off cushions of billiard table). Thats fine, you want to block them (usually) and its also fine coz soft furnishings will absorb much of these higher freq, smaller waves/rays. Specific treatment for a specific problem.

Big bad bass waves however dont act like straight shooting high frequency rays and definitely will not be absorbed by soft wall hangings. Those big bass waves will slosh/swamp into that right hand corner of your room like a big wave in a bathtub sloshes up the corners of your bath. A resonance will be created (standing wave) that will keep on 'ringing' in time and smearing the direct sound making thing muddy and burying details, sound boomy whatever

Your choice would be to place a physical bass trap in that corner or try DRC

OTOH if most of the music you play does not often excite large resonances in that corner, happy days

That's the first thing I'll do, right wall and bass trap in the corner. About digital correction, for now I'm going to keep my equipment and budget as they are for a while, so it is discarded as a short/medium term measure.

Gracias por los consejos! ✌✌

@Nicoalix Wonderful environment and excellent advice of Team Audiophile Style !

Would you consider to sacrifice the view for better sound ?
You could arrange your couch/sitting arrangement int the open space and to the left wall (seen from the open) and have your system with the TV at the opposite wall (would there be reflections on the TV ?). There may be security concerns to be adressed.
The advanatage would be no reflections from the wall behind your ears and you may get some proper sound as well at the dining table.. You may still have the need to compensate for the missing wall at the right from your sitting position.
There might be a couple of valid reasons not even to try it, but I love to offer different views at times ... ;-)
cheers, Tom